If I liked Luftwaffe Aircraft

[Pongo]

I would ask for the following.

BF109G6
 be upgraded to AS model

FW190A8
 Be given MW50
Jabo version with
No mw50
Cluster bomb.
R4M rockets
Mk103 gondolas
AP load out for the mg151s
Some extra armour

FW190A5
Have the 2 stage supercharger like grafs machine.
Tune the cockpit graphics to the quality of the newer planes.(real snivel there)

All aircraft have option of leaving off cowl guns. When wing guns are not selected remove them from plane graphic

[StSanta]

YEH second all  

When the Yak comes, I bet I'll be flying a lot of A5, so it better be good  



------------------
StSanta
II/JG2

[funked]

What's this about an A-5 with a two stage blower?  As far as I know such a machine did not exist.  Are you thinking of GM-1?

A-8 was not built with R4M or MK 103.  You must be thinking of another plane.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-26-2000).]

[Pongo]

There was an a5 with a 2 stage blower.(my dragon 190a5 is has the markings and its in LW aces of the western front plate 9.
I know but how hard would it be to have a 190f8...



[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 05-26-2000).]

[juzz]

How about a BMW 801F(2400hp) engine in the Fw 190A-5? Make it fly a bit better.

[funked]

Pongo, see my other post about the rockets, and you are right that they should be on an F-8 or F-9.  But including prototype items like MK 103 is about the same as including the X-4.    

The problem with MW 50 on the A-8 is that AFAIK there is no flight test data or engine power data showing power vs. altitude.

I have several books which cover the engine development of the 190 in detail, and the only two-stage BMW 801 was the 801E which was not produced and was never fitted on a 190.  It was a longer engine, and would have required a major redesign.

I'm guessing somebody confused "two-stage" and "two-speed" somewhere along the line, hence the remark in the Osprey book.  The external supercharger intakes were not uncommon, used on A-3/U7, A-5/U3, A-6/R4, as well as various F and G series planes.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-26-2000).]

[Pongo]

< doesnt know the difference between two stage and two speed. But knows its unsafe to assum

[funked]

Huh?

[Pongo]

I dont know what the diff between the two types of super charger are. But wouldnt either have an effect on the performance of the AC?

[funked]

Two-stage supercharger is actually two superchargers in series.  The second stage is useful at high altitude when your first stage can't provide enough boost.  Air goes into the second stage, gets compressed, then goes to the primary stage and gets compressed some more.  This was used on the later Merlin engines (Spit IX, P-51B onward) as well as the R 2800 in the F4U and F6F.

Two speed supercharger is just a single blower with a dual-speed transmission.  So when you hit an altitude where your blower can't provide enough boost in first gear, you shift into second gear and away you go.  Most planes in WW2 had a multi-speed blower.  

The Fw 190A/F/G/S had a two-speed single-stage blower.  The speed was was controlled automatically by the Kommandogerät.

A two-stage unit for the BMW 801 would have really helped the 190 at high altitudes, but it never appeared.  Tank was forced to try turbocharging, which didn't work out due to metallurgy problems.  So Tank was forced to go elsewhere for engines, which is why the Jumo 213 and DB 603 ended up in the Fw 190D and Ta 152.

[Pongo]

What where the extra intakes on Grafs A5 for then?.
Hes the leader of a high alt fighter squadron. And he has a specialy modified A5 that several sources state is a 2 stage super charger. You say it cannot be one. Then what was it. But that is enought I suppose.
All we need is some doubt about any German capability to get it ruled out of the game, while all we need is some hope of an Allied capability to get it in.

[Minotaur]

Pongo;

Not sure exactly either as to their effect on in-flight performance.

As to the compressors.  Two Stage implies that there are basicaly two air compressors (blowers / air pumps).  They are physically connected in series.  The discharge of the first provides the suction to the second.  This provides a two step change in the boost pressure.

Uses for this type of compressor (non-aircraft), generally appear in applications where a high flow rate is desired.  The horspower requirements are more efficient, than a single high pressure change across a single stage compressor.  

I have a two 7 stage air blowers running downstairs.

The compressor has two main requirements for torque or horsepower (supplied by the engine).  They are to compress (raise the pressure) and to pump (move)the air.

I suspect that the two stage blower would be marginally more efficient concerning Hp use, but the additional weight and complexity might be an offset vs a single stage compressor.  

Truth be known, I wonder if it was actually a "Two Speed Two Stage" compressor, the name being truncated for common usage.  

Interesting discussing fellas...   Thanks!  

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

[funked]

Pongo, as I pointed out, quite a few Fw 190A/F/G were built with the external supercharger intake.  This type of intake uses the "ram" effect to increase manifold pressure.  

There is a tradeoff though - additional drag.

At low altitudes, the 801 could generate excess manifold pressure from the supercharger alone.  I.e. Manifold pressure below rated altitude was limited by detonation, not by supercharger capacity.  Any additional pressure from the ram effect would be vented via the wastegate.  So at low altitude, all the external intake did was add drag.

But above the rated altitude of the engine, this extra pressure from the intake can be used, and it was apparently worth the extra drag.

These intakes first appeared A-3/U7 which was a lightened high-altitude version of the A-3.  I have also heard of them on A-5 and A-6 which were equipped with GM-1 for high altitude work.  On F and G series planes they were used with air filters for duty in the desert and on the dusty steppe.

I have performance figures for an A-8 with GM-1, but I can't find anything for a plane with the external air intakes.  I'll poke around some more tonight.

[funked]

"All we need is some doubt about any German capability to get it ruled out of the game, while all we need is some hope of an Allied capability to get it in."

Gotta be kidding me...

First of all, I don't make these decisions, Pyro does.

Second, I am a big Fw 190 fan, and I'm only engaging in this discussion to learn more about the development of the plane.  You say two-stage supercharger and my ears perk up.

If you've got sources, tell me!  What were some Werknummers for planes in Graf's Staffel?  Was there a particular Umrustbausatz number associated with these planes?  Any special designation for the engine?  Performance figures?

Unless you've got anything, I tend to think it's more likely that the Osprey people confused two-speed with two-stage, than it is likely that 5 different historians of Fw 190 development completely missed a critical innovation in BMW 801 development.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-26-2000).]

[Nashwan]

What exactly is a 109G6 AS model, and how is it different from the "normal" model?
(Not a trick or troll or anything, just want to know)