Countering the Rolling Scissors

[mtnman]

well the nose up nose down has to do with gravity and the ability to close your turn ...

i.e. in a scissor, as someone stated it is a race to the rear position, the plane that can cross above the other thereby bleeding more e in the climb should be able to use the upward vertical plane to close their turn better than the plane that crosses lower ...

i may be stating it poorly but usually in a scissor you want to try to cross above your opponent.  if the scissor is not in the horizontal plane the pilot should know he is better able to work for the rear position when he is climbing relative to his opponent, conversely when he is descending he is better able to address his speed/energy needs.  working against gravity is counter productive and you are better off holding off on addressing either position or energy until you have gravity working with you.

i.e.

a similar plane diving should not be able to "gain" rearward on a similar climbing aircraft in a near equal energy state.    

conversely a similar plane climbing should not be able to "gain" speed/energy on a similar diving aircraft in a near equal energy state.

i find this happens far to much in the games for me to believe everything is as it all should be.    

so, the ability for some aircraft to do these things out of order so to speak often makes me think things are not quite correct.

if these things never happen to you well we have different experiences and i can only evaluate what i see.

+S+

t

After likely thousands of kills using the rolling scissors, and teaching many people to fly and use the rolling scissors, I think I can confidently say the scissors works like it should.  

I'll go out on a limb here, and say that if your results differ, you need to improve your scissors.  We could prove that with film, or 1 on 1 work in the TA.

I've never seen an example where the person who lost it, lost it due to an improper flight model.  To come in and state in a matter-of-fact way that the flight model is incorrect, or that ACM's don't work as they should, when you don't review film and won't post examples, sure isn't going to help you get people to consider your opinions to be relevant and based on fact...

[The Fugitive]

i.e.

a similar plane diving should not be able to "gain" rearward on a similar climbing aircraft in a near equal energy state.   

conversely a similar plane climbing should not be able to "gain" speed/energy on a similar diving aircraft in a near equal energy state.

It's not the plane, its the pilot. All other things being equal it's the pilot preforming the maneuvers better than the other that will force the plane out front. It's has nothing to do with the "flight model"

[thorsim]

yea well you guys are missing the basic point that all things are not equal, one plane is climbing, one is diving, that has consequences.  
in the real world there is no way a "down up" plane can close a turn on an "up down" plane that is trying to do the same.
(similar planes similar e states)
it has nothing to do with pilot quality, it should be impossible "."
it is a large part of why high yoyos and lag rolls work, why they must work.
yet it happens a fair amount in the games at least it appears to happen from my POV/FE ...

so, since once again you guys are apparently are not paying attention to my point just forget i said anything and go on thinking everything is perfect here.

i will provide films when i get around to it, feel free to show me how wrong i am until then ...

i really don't care, i know perfectly well what i am seeing, and i am sure you all know perfectly well some things that are possible in the video games are not so possible in TRW, even if you are reluctant to say so.

no offense

t


  

[mtnman]

yea well you guys are missing the basic point that all things are not equal, one plane is climbing, one is diving, that has consequences.  
in the real world there is no way a "down up" plane can close a turn on an "up down" plane that is trying to do the same.
(similar planes similar e states)
it has nothing to do with pilot quality, it should be impossible "."
it is a large part of why high yoyos and lag rolls work, why they must work.
yet it happens a fair amount in the games at least it appears to happen from my POV/FE ...

so, since once again you guys are apparently are not paying attention to my point just forget i said anything and go on thinking everything is perfect here.

i will provide films when i get around to it, feel free to show me how wrong i am until then ...

i really don't care, i know perfectly well what i am seeing, and i am sure you all know perfectly well some things that are possible in the video games are not so possible in TRW, even if you are reluctant to say so.

no offense

t

No, I'm paying attention to it, but it's hog-wash.  It's not worth my time to worry about it, if you can't even be bothered to show us these flaws you think you're seeing.

I have no doubt you think you know what you're seeing.  I don't believe you're seeing what you think you're seeing.  I have no need or desire to waste my time proving you're wrong, I'm perfectly content to just take you at face value until you show me differently.  I've seen enough of your arguments to feel quite sure you'll not post anything of substance- will I be right?

What's the point in posting a bunch of films refuting your point, when A- you can't figure out how to (or be bothered) watch them?  And B- even if we posted a million of them, you'd just say "well, it happens a different way to me..."  All you need to do, on the other hand, is show us one example...

ACM's work in AH.  All you need to do is fly them correctly, at the right time, and at the right speed.  That's been shown over, and over, and over, and over...

I think this is a simple case of operator error.  I don't think you know how to fly the maneuver correctly.  And/or can't read your opponents E and flight attitude well enough.  I think you're taking the easy way out by blaming someone else for your own issues.

Show me differently.  Show me a film of you flying a proper scissors, where it doesn't work due to an error in the flight model.  Show me that as you say "it has nothing to do with pilot quality".  Show me the impossible is happening here.

Figuring out the Film Viewer will take you 5 minutes.  Another 5 minutes to figure out how to post one...  Lemme know, I can explain it if needed...  It's not hard.  Double-click on your film.  Click the Play button.  Adjust the views, if you need to.  Watch the film.  Upload the film to a free host.  Link to it here.  Explain where you see the impossible occurring.  Done.

[RTHolmes]

From what I've seen, the VAST majority of those "WTF" moments are a result of inadequate SA.  As my experience and SA built, I've found those have completely gone away.

QFT

(although I still have plenty of em, I have alot less than I did because my understanding has improved)

[boomerlu]

It's amazing how many "WTF" situations are explained with a film.  And then turned into "Oh, I can use that!"  

Hear here! Film viewer is invaluable for reviewing combat situations. It gives so much information (alt, airspeed, trails).

[The Fugitive]

yea well you guys are missing the basic point that all things are not equal, one plane is climbing, one is diving, that has consequences.  
in the real world there is no way a "down up" plane can close a turn on an "up down" plane that is trying to do the same.
(similar planes similar e states)
it has nothing to do with pilot quality, it should be impossible "."
it is a large part of why high yoyos and lag rolls work, why they must work.
yet it happens a fair amount in the games at least it appears to happen from my POV/FE ...

so, since once again you guys are apparently are not paying attention to my point just forget i said anything and go on thinking everything is perfect here.

i will provide films when i get around to it, feel free to show me how wrong i am until then ...

i really don't care, i know perfectly well what i am seeing, and i am sure you all know perfectly well some things that are possible in the video games are not so possible in TRW, even if you are reluctant to say so.

no offense

t


  

Why not? If one guy hangs it up over the top a bit longer than the other, or on the low end one guy pulls a little more G as he brings it back around, it is most certainly going to change the dynamics enough over time to push one plane in front of the other. It has too!

[mtnman]

Why not? If one guy hangs it up over the top a bit longer than the other, or on the low end one guy pulls a little more G as he brings it back around, it is most certainly going to change the dynamics enough over time to push one plane in front of the other. It has too!

You're right Fugitive, but without getting him to look at some films, I don't think he'll get it.  I think he's fixating on the idea that the loops will (er, could)appear to be "egg-shaped" if seen from the front or back of the barrel roll "tube", and that's why he can't imagine the plane flying through the bottom being able to "gain" on the other.

Of course, "gaining" isn't the goal of the rolling scissors, so he's a bit off the mark right there...  He thinks he's losing because the other guy can gain on him?

He's also apparently not "seeing" all the variations that occur in a given scissors, that give one pilot the edge over the other, even in similar planes, with similar E, and similar goals.  Things that immediately spring to mind that can alter what he thinks he's seeing are misjudging someone elses E, someone "hanging" or "loitering" at the top, someone doing a simple roll at the top (without the elevator to make it a barrel roll), and the fact that one plane may be nearer to corner velocity, yielding a better turn rate, while one is slower, with a better turn radius.

And again, the fact he'd complain about someone gaining/closing on another in this maneuver is a telling complaint...  If you're trying to close on your opponent in the rolling scissors, you're looking to get shot.

He's read enough to know how the maneuver is "supposed" to work, but when he doesn't see that result he immediately figure's it's the flight model being porked...  It couldn't possibly be the pilot, since he can't be doing the maneuver wrong (or just less-good), right?  For some, it's too hard to blame yourself for your own failures.

The real shame of it is that it's so easy to fix these problems.  A little work with films, maybe some work in the TA, and "poof" the fights get easier, satisfying, and less frustrating.

You can lead a horse to water...

[SPKmes]

I always know the point at which I have lost in a rolling scissors............... normally the point of entry  ...but seriously..there is not a time that I have wondered (once I learned how to do it with some ability) how I lost it....I like the rolling scissors......I have alot of fun with it and if you are fighting somebody equally as competent it can be fun, watching and adjusting to the different little things you can do.Much like all of the maneuvers once you have learned the basics you can then dress them up. 


that's just my tid bit on this post

[Noah17]

From my short career in flight sims it seems like the rolling scissors is one of the most difficult maneuvers to perform correctly(the quickest way to kill me is if I try to start one  ); so I'll throw out there that unless you think you're facing a "hot stick" perhaps you do follow someone in to the scissors but not fall for trying to make a shot quickly; wait them out and let them pull for the shot and fly in front of you......My guess is that most can't perform it well and because it's difficult are more likely to screw it up.

I really need to work on this maneuver. Big Rat has offered his help but, I haven't been there at the right time to work with him(I didn't realize you were on Central time and I'm on East Coast time). So being good at initiating the Rolling Scissors, maintaining it and, being patient could be the best counter???

Saxman says the F4U(my favorite ride) is about the best at this maneuver; would Saxman or, anyone else be able to explain why/how this is the case? Maybe I'll be able to learn to do it better as a result.

Excellent post all and, thanks for the help/information.
 

[Saxman]

Saxman says the F4U(my favorite ride) is about the best at this maneuver; would Saxman or, anyone else be able to explain why/how this is the case? Maybe I'll be able to learn to do it better as a result.

Part of it is the combination of the high rate of roll, the flaps, and that massive rudder.

[Big Rat]

I really need to work on this maneuver. Big Rat has offered his help but, I haven't been there at the right time to work with him(I didn't realize you were on Central time and I'm on East Coast time). So being good at initiating the Rolling Scissors, maintaining it and, being patient could be the best counter???

Saxman says the F4U(my favorite ride) is about the best at this maneuver; would Saxman or, anyone else be able to explain why/how this is the case? Maybe I'll be able to learn to do it better as a result.

Excellent post all and, thanks for the help/information.
 

Noah17,

Wondered where you were , anyway still there weeknights around 9 central, sometimes a bit before.

As Saxman said the hog is almost built for rolling scissors, and a lot of other reversal moves that require a quick roll rate as well.

 
BigRat

[RTHolmes]

rolling scissors doesnt require stellar rollrate, although the transition to a decent firing solution when its complete might...

edit: sustained turn rate is the key factor in the rolling scissors, unlike a flat scissors where turn radius and rollrate are the key factors. it can be confusing that they are both called scissors because they each favour completely different aircraft attributes.

[Saxman]

edit: sustained turn rate is the key factor in the rolling scissors, unlike a flat scissors where turn radius and rollrate are the key factors. it can be confusing that they are both called scissors because they each favour completely different aircraft attributes.

There's something more at work, because the Corsair's sustained turn rate isn't that remarkable. If sustained turn rate alone was the deciding factor the Corsair would be middle of the pack at best, not near the top of the heap.

[thorsim]

There's something more at work, because the Corsair's sustained turn rate isn't that remarkable. If sustained turn rate alone was the deciding factor the Corsair would be middle of the pack at best, not near the top of the heap.

the ability to maneuver while flying slowly ...

which the hog was not noted for either in TRW ...