Countering the Rolling Scissors

[boomerlu]

I'm confused though, shouldn't the 109's torque make it "want" to roll right?  I thought the prop revolved opposite of an F4U?

Surely you must be joking Mr Mtnman? The 109 torque is infamous amongst us krauts...

[mtnman]

Surely you must be joking Mr Mtnman? The 109 torque is infamous amongst us krauts...

Honestly, I don't know.  I don't fly any of the LW planes, mainly due to their looks.  I've always heard they had torque issues, I just haven't seen it... 

I've flown them for 3(?) hops this tour, just to try something different, and didn't find them to be difficult to fly, fight in, or get kills in.  I was fighting a spit on my first hop, and got jumped by a 262.  They both died, and I went home...

I've also flown them here/there (maybe 2-3 times?) when people in the TA wanted to work in them.  I'm far from experienced in them, but found them to fly about like any other...  The same things that work for me on a day/day basis still worked in the 109.  The acceleration and climb sure made things seem easy (I don't normally have that).  I'm used to needing a few more rounds of ammo too, just a few pings from the 109 ended the fights I was in.

For me, AH is about flying corsairs and shooting other folks down.  I've more than satisfied my "LW itch" for another 5-6 years at this point...

[mtnman]

natural in the rolling scissor when this doesn't happen things are "funny".
you need to address your position while climbing and your energy needs while diving, which is what i said originally, along with my observations that this does not seem to be the case always in the games.  

Any examples?

As for the "not always the case in the game" idea- does it seem like the FM's or "environmental" aspects vary day by day, or minute by minute? What do you mean, not always the case?  Sometimes?  But not at other times?  Sometimes things are "correct", but at others they're not?

When you watch the film I posted, what anomalies do you see?

What precisely happens that's "funny"?

Ardy's statement/question is related to "how do I do this better"? or "what are you doing to be successful at this"?... while yours seems to be "AH is messed up".

[thorsim]

when i run across something funny in a scissor again i will try to note it when i name the save film file ...

we have already been over several possibilities of what it could be other than something wrong with the FM ...

i've been over the "funny" things that happen that should not happen in a scissor, now if you want to argue that a pilot/plane should be able to work against gravity and achieve better results than a pilot/plane working with gravity i am all ears, i am also curious about the ability of these planes to go nose up in any significant way at the speeds stated here, not saying anything is impossible here, but i would love to see the possible positive AOA change of a WW2 prop fighter at what 100-150 IAS ...

Any examples?

i'm very curious, and yes especially if the flaps were deployed.

+S+

t



 

[Agent360]

People!!!

There is no actual "prop hanging" in a 109. This term refers to the ability to CONTROL the plane nose up into a POWER ON STALL.

If you drive the K4 up at 90 deg verticle at any speed it will eventually go to 0 airspeed, tail slide and flop around until you get airspeed again....like any other plane.

What is really happening is the pilot is driving the plane into the verticle at an off angle from 90 deg until it reaches less than 100 mph..at this point the tork and rudder are used to maneuver the plane around and over. At the end of the maneuver the nose is pointed down. The plane is being maneuverd during the last seconds of airspeed...BEFORE it stalls to 0 airspeed and CAN NOT be maneuvered. During this the plane APPEARS to be hanging on the prop when in fact it is not.

Climb rate is the deciding factor here. When a plane drops into rolling scissors with a 109 the goal of the 109 is to draw you into verticle turns to the point of draining the energy. At some point the 109 is going to capitalize on the climb...this comes at lower airspeed where IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Once the 109 neutrilizes the bandits ZOOM and takes the fight to pure engine and climb power the fight is dominated by the better climbing plane. We are talking about climb rate when the plane gets below about 200mph. The 109's can eeeek out every bit of energy in the verticle while most other planes will stall out flat and flip.

The 109's also have wing slats that deploy when the wing approaches stall. This helps greatly in preventing a snap roll when maneuvering at stalling speeds.

BTW...tork is to the LEFT in ALL 109's.

And...there is not FM problem.

Once you learn how to handle any plane at stalling speeds nearly all of them can dupicate what the 109 does...BUT the difference is the 109 can do it at about 50 mph slower than all other planes....and that speed difference is where the over shoot happens.

As for "countering scissors"...there is no counter. Either you scissor to death or ESCAPE. So the proper "counter" would be to find an exit where you can gain seperation and speed to change the fight to something else such as a flat turn or achieve a top positon for BZ.

In every scissor engagement there are EXIT points. The exit points diminish quickly as the fight slows down. If you get into scissors and want to get out you better do it right quick...before the 4th turn. After that your locken in and the best pilot is going to win.

[boomerlu]

Honestly, I don't know.  I don't fly any of the LW planes, mainly due to their looks.  I've always heard they had torque issues, I just haven't seen it... 

Well to me, they just have massive engine power (which is reflected in their climb). At low speeds... i.e. around 120 mph and below, I notice significantly impaired rolling to the right to the point where I find it completely natural to throttle off to make those rolls (and by extension to keep the throttle on to help roll left). This does happen to other planes, just doesn't seem as serious.

I was surprised about your comment mainly because so many of our planes have left-handed torque. It's the right handed ones that are the exceptions (off the top of my head: Spit 14, Tiffie series).

[RTHolmes]

i've been over the "funny" things that happen that should not happen in a scissor

I cant make head nor tail of your description of the "funny" things happening, can you be more specific?

[thorsim]

I cant make head nor tail of your description of the "funny" things happening, can you be more specific?

how about this, instead of saying my descriptions are too general when i posted a perfectly clear discription in reply 32 of this thread and more since then, why don't you guys who profess to do all these things so much better than i do go out and try to gain the rear position out of order on another equally "club vetted" player ...

remember both of you must be honestly trying to get the rear position, if either of you are able to gain when you are descending and your counterpart is climbing and the two of you can not find an explanation for that then i suggest the general FM and or specific FMs are flawed.  

it is my understanding that working against gravity in a scissor and succeeding is, or should be, impossible.  
now i have on occasion seen this happen in the games, however i do not have a record handy so maybe your testing can allow you to see what i am talking about ...

EDIT : addendum, mind you this is just an example of things that make players say WTF, and is one that particularly bothers me.  i fly and have flown with both long time simmers and long time real world pilots even long time combat pilots and to a man they all have their WTF moments in the games.
now are they all examples of a game that does not completely accurately represent reality? i am sure not. 
are some of them actually things that would be impossible in the real world? i am sure they are. 

that is all i was saying since the beginning.
 

[RTHolmes]

are you talking about a rolling scissors or a flat scissors with some vertical components? because they are completely different.

[thorsim]

are you talking about a rolling scissors or a flat scissors with some vertical components? because they are completely different.

feel free to look at both, yes they are different but my point would be the same.

i.e. being able to work rearward on a similar climbing aircraft while diving should be very very very unlikely ...

point of fact crossing above of your opponent is stated as a clear goal of a pilot trying to win a scissor fight.

[RTHolmes]

ok i'm gonna bail on this as I have no idea what you're trying to describe. I'll wait for film

[thorsim]

ok i will keep an eye out for ya 

[mtnman]

Well to me, they just have massive engine power (which is reflected in their climb). At low speeds... i.e. around 120 mph and below, I notice significantly impaired rolling to the right to the point where I find it completely natural to throttle off to make those rolls (and by extension to keep the throttle on to help roll left). This does happen to other planes, just doesn't seem as serious.

I was surprised about your comment mainly because so many of our planes have left-handed torque. It's the right handed ones that are the exceptions (off the top of my head: Spit 14, Tiffie series).

No big deal...  I guess I thought the 109's were one of the odd-ball types that had opposite torque.  I knew about the others, I just don't fly any of them enough to really pay attention to it...

[mtnman]

how about this, instead of saying my descriptions are too general when i posted a perfectly clear discription in reply 32 of this thread and more since then, why don't you guys who profess to do all these things so much better than i do go out and try to gain the rear position out of order on another equally "club vetted" player ...

remember both of you must be honestly trying to get the rear position, if either of you are able to gain when you are descending and your counterpart is climbing and the two of you can not find an explanation for that then i suggest the general FM and or specific FMs are flawed.  

it is my understanding that working against gravity in a scissor and succeeding is, or should be, impossible.  
now i have on occasion seen this happen in the games, however i do not have a record handy so maybe your testing can allow you to see what i am talking about ...

EDIT : addendum, mind you this is just an example of things that make players say WTF, and is one that particularly bothers me.  i fly and have flown with both long time simmers and long time real world pilots even long time combat pilots and to a man they all have their WTF moments in the games.
now are they all examples of a game that does not completely accurately represent reality? i am sure not. 
are some of them actually things that would be impossible in the real world? i am sure they are. 

that is all i was saying since the beginning.
 

Actually, I'm not so sure you shouldn't be able to gain on your opponent in the "bottom", at least temporarily...  After all, you'd likely be closer to corner-speed, so should have an improved turn rate at that point.  Sure, your radius would be larger, but that could be outweighed by your improved turn rate...  I guess it would depend on the situation.

Is that where you're going with this?

And again, if I'm flying the rolling scissors, I'm not trying to gain on my opponent to begin with...  It really sounds like you're flying this maneuver by trying to hurry up and get behind your opponent, instead of allowing him to overshoot.

As for things in the game not being possible in the RW, I'd have to say you're correct, but that doesn't mean the FM is wrong.  In my eyes, a lot of that has to do with the efficiency we can manage our cockpits...  For example, in the game I can manage throttle and flaps at the same time (F4U).  In an actual plane, I couldn't.  So, any time I'm able to do that, I'm performing "impossible" tasks, leading to impossible maneuvers.  Maybe not impossible for the plane, but impossible for a "normal" human-piloted plane (F4U).  I'm also able to easily do those things (as well as others), when RL G's might make it very difficult for me to just move my hand or arm in a coordinated manner.

[thorsim]

Actually, I'm not so sure you shouldn't be able to gain on your opponent in the "bottom", at least temporarily...  After all, you'd likely be closer to corner-speed, so should have an improved turn rate at that point.  Sure, your radius would be larger, but that could be outweighed by your improved turn rate...  I guess it would depend on the situation.

Is that where you're going with this?

And again, if I'm flying the rolling scissors, I'm not trying to gain on my opponent to begin with...  It really sounds like you're flying this maneuver by trying to hurry up and get behind your opponent, instead of allowing him to overshoot.

As for things in the game not being possible in the RW, I'd have to say you're correct, but that doesn't mean the FM is wrong.  In my eyes, a lot of that has to do with the efficiency we can manage our cockpits...  For example, in the game I can manage throttle and flaps at the same time (F4U).  In an actual plane, I couldn't.  So, any time I'm able to do that, I'm performing "impossible" tasks, leading to impossible maneuvers.  Maybe not impossible for the plane, but impossible for a "normal" human-piloted plane (F4U).  I'm also able to easily do those things (as well as others), when RL G's might make it very difficult for me to just move my hand or arm in a coordinated manner.

all good points ...

+S+

as i said i will keep my eye out and probably we could sort it out