Stats revisited; comparing A5 to F4U-C

[StSanta]

A bit back, there were cries of the A5 being über (which I agreed with, and consequently dinnae fly it) and of course the almightly F4U-C being über. After removing ground kills, it was shown that they were almost equivalently über for air to air combat. And the 190A5 was modified to better hit numbers, i.e more weight was added, cannon ammo reduced, fuel was removed, climb rate got worse and so forth, all as it should be.

For good measures, a new comparison between the A5 and F4U is needed. After all, fm was revised and A5 was porked a good deal to meet numbers more accurately.

Tour 8 stats (was entire tour 8 1.04? Cannot recall)

190A5 K/D: 1.2
F4U-C: 1.66

Let's modify it to remove kills of and death by vehicles:

190A5 kills: 2806 - (Ostwind)51 - (M3)3 - (M16)65 - (PNZ)17 = 2670
Deaths: 2342 -(Ostwind)248 - (M3)3 - (M16)35 - (PNZ)29 = 2027

New K/D: 1.31

F4U-C kills: 9789-(Ostwind)687-(M3)103-(M16)218-(PNZ)100 = 8681
Deaths: 5880-(OStwind)1426-(M3)18-(M16)89-(PNZ)9 = 4338

New K/D: 2.0

For the fun of it; let's bring the little brother of the F4U-C, the D.

F4U-D K/D: 1252/1967 = 0.64

Kills minus vehicles: 1252 - (Ostwind)30 - (M3)11 - (M16)12-(PNZ)14 = 1185
Deaths minus vehicles: 1967-(Ostwind)359 - (M3)9- (M16)22- (PNZ)36 = 1541
New K/D: 0.77.

Based on these numbers, I conclude that the A5 has been appropriatey porked and is flown much less by the average no skill dweeb, and that the F4U-C has benefitted from new FM changes, and with it, the A5 dweebs have suddenly realized that LW sucked and the allieds were cool.

Based on huge difference between -D and -C, I say that tsjhokk is liked and is effective more because of cannons than pilot skill.

There are much less effective planes than the A5 out there, but seemed prudent I'd compare with it since that was what we did last time.

So, eat your hearts out, tsjhokk dweebs (Verm not included  ).

A5 has been de-dweebied (woohooo!) and F4U-C is, well, a fluff'ng tsjhokk.  

Start the flames  

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[Vermillion]

One question... what is a "tsjhokk" (the literal meaning) and what language is it?



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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[StSanta]

"tsjhokk" is the way I pronounce "c-hog". I spit a lot when I do so, and it's meant to be  used in a derogatory fashion  .



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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[Duckwing6]

Ohhhwww Santa and his rich akzent  

I'd say

Tze - Hoog

'f course i've got that ich Austrian Akzent  

Oh and btw i still think that all cannon armed planes suck .

Long live the mighty D

[Minotaur]

StSanta;

The 1C had a K/D of around 2.0 before the A5 ever exsisted in AH.

Following your tweaked sense of logic, they need to improve the P-38, not the A5, to compete more evenly.  

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Ass, ass, ass. I said it and im glad."
Easymo

[F4UDOA]

Gents,

It may be a small factor to some but there is a difference in FM's of the two A/C.
The C was a dedicated Air to Air machine and had limited ground attack ability based on design. It was lighter than the D which had a significant ground attack capabilty but also had more weight. This is modeled in AH. The two A/C have different FM's. The C can out turn the D by a pretty fair margin, and for folks who sometimes like to get dirty in furballs this makes a difference.
Am I dweeb? Lets see.

The LW boys have had the 109G-10 for a while now and it was the king of hill for a while but they seem to have given up on it since 1.04. However the G10 in AH has a max speed of 450MPH. This is clearly the same FM as a K model not a G. Why do they fly them if the FM is so clearly wrong? Are they dweebs as well? The C202 and C205 are the Italian representitives of the game. How many of those were produced? Does it exceed 200?
Since 200 is the magic number for dweebdom in AH surely they must have built millions of those little things right?

Here is another possible sign your a dweeb. When your field is Capped by the NME do you quick jump into a Buff, Spit or NIK2? Where is your allegiance to your reguler mount? To me that is dweebery. I fly my Hog, sometimes D but usually C weather the field is capped or I'm doing a Jabo run. Did Adolf Galland run to the end of feild and grab a NIK2 out of the reserve Japanese hanger when his field was attacked?

Also I do not understand why you keep calling the F4U-1C a late war plane? It was not. From 1943 to 1944 the F4U remained essentially the same. Water Injection being the only flight enhancing addition and that was in 1943. The only addition to the -1C was 4 cannon, hardly a late war uber plane. The late war varient of the F4U was the
F4U-4 which could out climb the G10, Spit, NIK2 and every other bird in AH as well as being faster. The FW-190D9 stats don't even come close. So if AH does go to a full late war plane set you will really have something to complain about.

Later
F4UDOA  

PS. I think I have proof that Goodyear also produced a FG-1C. In what numbers I do not know. Will get back with more info.

[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 09-26-2000).]

[StSanta]

Minotaur:

you read me wrong - I am not suggesting anyone "fix" the A5 - I am confident HTC hit the numbers pretty good on that one.

This little stats thingy was merely assembled to show that the dweeb a5 was fixed and is gone, and that the F4U is more deadly than ever.

To such a degree that one can argue that it's a candidate for the perk system  .

F4UDOA, you think the quite small difference in fm results in a K/D difference of that rate? I think postulating that is a bit wrong. The difference between them doesn't correspond to a whopping 1.33 K/D points. No way.

Not sure why you bring the G10 into this debate - logical fallacy of creating a strawman to knock down? 1.04 hasn't been too kind on the 109G10, or rather, the added difficulty of bleeding the opponent plane's e has made it less effective.

Nor am I complaining about the tsjhokk being in the game.

And no, I never do field defense in anything other than German aircraft. You'll never find me in an ackstarr either. But this really is another strawman.

Never said anything about the C being a late war plane in this post.

I doubt the monster F4U will be modelled as a regular plane in AH, so no worries there.

F4UDOA, this is not meant as a personal attack, but the statistics show a major difference here. They also show a migration of dweebs from A5 to tsjhokk. Additionally, it is quite clear that the difference in FM between C and D does not correspond to the difference in FM.

There are non dweeb tjhokk drivers out there, to be sure. But, by far, the F4U-C is used as a skill negator dweeb plane more than any other plane.

And one could argue, due to low numbers who actually saw air to air combat and very impressive stats, that it is a candidate for the perk system. If the Dora is a candidate, the tsjhokk is a certain  .




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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[Vermillion]

He does have one very good point.

The F4U-4 is to the F4U-1D, as the 190D9 is to the 190A8.

Both were the late war varient of their preferred aircraft that saw significant combat. And the F4U-4 was produced in large numbers too.

What bothers me is how people view certain aircraft to the point its hypocritical.

If your a fan of the P-51D, P-38L, Fw190D9, Me109G1-0 (or K4), Yak-9U, N1K2, Ki84, Spit XIV, or the La7, how can you be against either the F4U-4 or the P-47N ?

How does a F4U-4 or a P-47N differ from any of the others I mentioned, except for the fact that they may outperform your chosen bird.

But the first whisper of either of these aircraft, and people start to scream "PERK IT PERK IT!!!"

**Computer Voice: Rant Mode is now disable**

Have a nice day !  


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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Naso]

 

Originally posted by F4UDOA:
The C202 and C205 are the Italian representitives of the game. How many of those were produced? Does it exceed 200?
Since 200 is the magic number for dweebdom in AH surely they must have built millions of those little things right?

You are right F4DOA, the 202 and the 205 are too uber, perk it, both !!

And the mighty and untouched Italian industry was producing the REAL uber cr-42 in billion of pieces, so the macchis are dweebish uber perk planes.

 

[Minotaur]

SrSanta;

We have been through this F4U-1C debate over and over and over and over and ( ) over.  This is nothing new.

Basically concerning the F4U-1C:

• Very tough airframe
• Fairly manuverable airframe
• Fairly good Hp-weight airframe
• Pretty fast airframe
• Moderately good E-retention airframe
• 4 x 20mm cannon that can smoke your bellybutton in a heart beat

Questions?  Answers?  

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Ass, ass, ass. I said it and im glad."
Easymo

[F4UDOA]

WOWWW!!

Verm you were the only one to get my point.

Stsanta, no personel attack taken at all. However this is at least the 50th uber
F4U-1C thread I have seen. Way more than any other A/C bashing campain by at least triple.
There are attacks made on C Hog pilots daily on the message boards as well as the radio buffer. You even have your own term for them "Tsjhokk". I am mearly pointing out the hipocracy of trying to bash the big bird because it has an Uber K/D.

In short here is the deal. When I felt there was a problem with the F4U perfomance first I whined like a baby and was roundly flamed and laughed at for my feable argument. Then insted of continuing my sillyness I got educated by speaking to people who new the flight dynamics of the A/C like Wells, Funked and F.Dean(Auther of Americas Hundred Thousand) and others. Then I made a resonabale arguement that got the support of others because I could say 1+2=3. All I hear from the Hog bashers is that the A/C is too Uber. And I hear this in 10 different threads at once. It's all just wining until someone proves that the cannons are overmodeled or that NO A/C will be allowed into AH unless some number have been produced IE. that specific varient. The argument that it was a late war fighter is idiotic because it was the same exact A/C performance for almost two years since they added water injection. Simply comparing K/D to other A/C and saying that the FM is porked doesn't prove anything either. Should I also say that the F4U-1D is porked because it's K/D is so low? After all it was flight tested against a 190A-5 and was superior in many ways and also had an 11 to 1 K/D in the war. Stupid argument? Not as stupid as another C hog bashing thread.

StSanta this may sound like a flame but it is not. I am not even going to say that I disagree with you because ALL of the cannon birds in AH have a distinct advantage. Simple pointing out the one who benifits most is just silly. As far as the FM goes it was proven that the current FM is far more realitic than the old. Glide ratio's in 1.03 were a miserable 5 to 1 on A/C where they should have been 12 to 1. So clearly AH is now a more realistic simm. Just because the 109G-10 lost some of it's advantage does not make it wrong. It is still the fastest best climbing bird in the game while still being cannon armed. And as far as newbie planes. The Hog is still one of the hardest birds to fly for newbies who want to yank the stick around. The NIK2 is by far the flavor of the month.

Naso,

My point isn't to bash the 202 or 205. I am mearly asking what the production numbers are on those A/C. Do you know? And please be specific to the varient of the model.

Thanks
F4UDOA

 

[Tac]

I believe the CHOG and DHOG FM's are ok as they are.

The high K/D ration of the CHOG is due in part because Torque flies it (lets give him 40% of the kill in the CHOG hehe) and because even the most untrained newbie, once he finds out how to take off in that Torque (force, not player) monster they can easily whack an experienced pilot off the sky in with the snapshot kill.

N1K and Chog are spray and pray birds. Ideal for newbies. A vet pilot will definetely fare better in them, and that is why we FEAR the N1K because they are mostly flown by people who KNOW how to ACM in that bird.

I'd say the CHOG has a 10% better performance than the DHOG.. but put 10 pilots of varying skill, from ACM-less to ACM-gods in a DHOG and you will see the ACM-less will fare horribly in it.. give them a CHOG and *poof*! Instant kill gallore!

That is why I believe most people here, myself included, think the CHOG is a very unbalancing plane. HTC may as well introduce the ME262.. it would be the same situation.. newbies racking up undeserved, unworked kills because they fly a plane that encourages point-and-shootalotandpray (ALLELUYAH!) instead of ACM.

Hell, I put my 12 year old cousin in a CHOG, he shot down 3 planes before he augered!. His only sim experience was a few fights in MS Combat Sim. What does that tell you?

[Zigrat]

F4uDoa,

You know i like you alot, and please realize that the f4u is my favorite plane of the war  


But the argument i hear over and over is that the f4u-1d is "more suited to ground attack" why because it carries 4 more rockets? 4 more rocket hardpoints should weigh mabye 100 pounds. Surely the extra weight of the hispanos and 900+ rounds of ammo should mean that the plane should perform slightkly worse than the f4u-1d. I mean, do you really think 4 rocket hardpoints weigh that much?

I really don't consider myself to be loyal to any one particular aircraft type, check my stats if you don't believe me, I fly most nationalities and planes.

But I *do* have to say I think the f4u-1c isn't very fair as it is now, lest review the comparison to the Fw-190.

Speed
-----
The f4u-1c is faster than the FW-190 a5 at al altitudes

Climb Rate and acceleration
--------------------------
Above 7k feet, the f4u-1c outclimbs and out accelerates the fw-190 a5. Below 7k, the 190 a5 outclimbs and out accelerates te f4u-1c

Dive
-----
The f4u-1c out dives the fw-190 a5

Durability
----------
The f4u-1c is more durable than the fw-190 a5

Armorment
----------
The f4u-1c has significantly more lethal cannon than the fw-190 a5, and carries significantly more payload for ground attack missions.

Manouverability
-------------

The Fw-190 has a roll advantage below 300 knots (small but significant)

The F4u-1c significantly outturns the fw-190 a5

Visibility
-------------
The F4u-1c has significantly better forward visibility than the fw-190 a5, and is able to make better snapshots with its significantly more lethal weapons.

I think that pretty much says it all? In short, I don't think that there is enough data on the f4u-1c to postulate that it should perform (ie fly) better than the f4u-1d. Additionally, I think if we took the arena's  dedicated F4u pilots and put them in 190s, and took the arena's 190 pilots and put them in f4u's I *think* i know who the victor of this rumble would be. Again, I don't consider myself a 190 pilot anymore, i have flown the hog more this tour than the 190.

[MC202]

From F4UDOA:
> The C202 and C205 are the Italian
> representitives of the game. How many of
> those were produced? Does it exceed 200?
> Since 200 is the magic number for dweebdom
> in AH surely they must have built millions
> of those little things right?
and
> My point isn't to bash the 202 or 205. I am
> mearly asking what the production numbers
> are on those A/C. Do you know? And please
> be specific to the varient of the model.

> Thanks
> F4UDOA

M.C.200 had aprox 1,200 units.

M.C.202 had 1,100+ built.

M.C.205 had aprox 290 new built, but M.C.202 airframes were re-built to M.C. 205 specs so the efective total is not known for sure.

Remember that the M.C.200 was a 1939/40 aircraft, the M.C.202 a 1941/2 aircraft and the M.C.205 a 1943 aircraft, all early to mid war.

For what an an Italian "late war" bird would look like, (though never in production) see the

Umbra M.B.902 (prototype destroyed in 1943, not flown):

Guns      four 12.7 mm, two 20mm cannon in the nose.

Speed      429 mph at 19,680 feet

Celling   34,440 feet

Range      1,056 miles

Engines   two contract built 1,475 hp DB 605's

Wing area   341.1 sq ft.

or the

Piaggio P.119 ( prototype flew 1942/3):

Guns      four 12.7 mgs, one 20mm cannon in the nose.

Speed      400 mph at 22,300 feet

Celling   41,340 feet, 12 min 30 sec to 30,000ft.

Range      940 miles

Engine   1,700 hp Piaggio 18 cyl radial, mid-engine ala the P39.

Wing area   299.2 sq ft.

MC202
Dino in Reno

[Fishu]

I must again state that statistics don't tell the whole truth...