Author Topic: Icon Philosophy - Approach  (Read 8929 times)

Offline Miska

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 286
Re: Icon Philosophy - Approach
« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2010, 03:06:51 PM »
The problem with the first set of guys, if you get an arena with 95% of that playstyle, you're just going to wind up with a great, giant bunch of aircraft climbing to infinity and beyond so they can have the advantage before they attack.  Two constantly moving of lines aircraft that try to move in, see there are planes with alt and/or speed on them, and reverse...  until they all run out of gas.

Unless they have something to accomplish.  A goal that makes the risk worth it.

Offline dedalos

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8052
Re: Icon Philosophy - Approach
« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2010, 03:10:52 PM »
You obviously haven't been in the AvA recently, otherwise you would not have posted such nonsense...  :neener:

Neither has Bighorn or Dedalos...but they keep talking like they know what's going on too...  :joystick:

How could I possibly know what I like and what I have seen during my years here?  Impossible.  :lol

Did you read the post I responded to?  It describes exactly what I am talking about.  I bet you if you some search you will find the same guy calling BS on me and how the fights are great.

At list I am honest about it lol

You guys are so desperate to bring people in the AvA you are spamming every thread and forum.  This thread was not about the AvA.  This forum is not about the AvA.  Shooo  :D
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 03:12:47 PM by dedalos »
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Crash Orange

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 911
Re: Icon Philosophy - Approach
« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2010, 03:27:18 PM »
Hrm... interesting.  Is that based on monitor size x at a specific distance from your eye?  Basically at default zoom that's 'life size' on that monitor?

It's based on resolution as well as apparent size. Your eye can see a lot more than even the best monitor and graphics card can show, in terms of detail, depth perception, and light levels.

Offline Bronk

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9044
Re: Icon Philosophy - Approach
« Reply #78 on: March 26, 2010, 03:35:38 PM »
It's based on resolution as well as apparent size. Your eye can see a lot more than even the best monitor and graphics card can show, in terms of detail, depth perception, and light levels.
Yup that is why we have zoom, Icons and range.
See Rule #4

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Re: Icon Philosophy - Approach
« Reply #79 on: March 26, 2010, 04:37:55 PM »
1. No icons is a non-realistic difficulty level. You can see far, far more inflight than you can see on a computer monitor. Thank Cod HT has done a lot of flying himself and KNOWS the truth of this. The truth is he's created a damn good system to make up for the inability of monitors to display what the eye could easily see in flight.

2. If you feel the need for a higher difficulty level, he has provided you with a lot of options. You can shrink the size of your personal icons by adjusting font size. You can completely turn them off on your computer. You can choose to play in the AvA when they're doing no icon setups.

3. If you feel the need to increase the difficulty level for OTHER players, pony up the $15 a month for them to play your way.

I get seriously tired of the folks that claim no icons somehow is more "realistic". Most of these people have never flown an airplane. Just one example that you guys might try next time you go on an airliner. Get a window seat. Once you're in cruise odds are you'll be anywhere from the mid 20k up to the mid 30k. When you fly over an interstate, check to see how easy it is to see the cars from 10k yards or so. How easy it is to tell a semi from a car. The vast majority of yas just don't know what you're talking about.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 04:53:26 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Re: Icon Philosophy - Approach
« Reply #80 on: March 26, 2010, 04:48:47 PM »
Here's another Real Life example that I posted a long time ago when this endlessly brought up subject was being discussed.




Well Pei, I can tell you this for a true fact:

At 2 miles both my copilot and I could make out individual windows on other airliners at cruise altitudes. This was over the Atlantic on the NAT tracks, on a clear day with little or no haze, when you've got nothing but time to wonder about stuff.

How do I know it was two miles? First of all, the TCAS transponder system that gives range, altitude and general direction of other participating aircraft.

Secondly, crossing waypoints and giving time reports. We'd cross the same waypoint. I'd just listen to the time they reported and compare our time/distance on the GPS FMS unit.

When you follow a guy for 4 hours, 2 miles in trail (or a bit off to the side; evreybody's GPS and FMS are a tiny bit different usually) and 2000 feet below you have plenty of time to look at him.

Those windows are roughly the size of a kid's notebook paper. Call it 12X10 inches and you'd be close. You could actually count them at 2 miles.

You could see the little American flag on US carriers' tails out past a mile. It's not as big as a Spit roundel.

So yeah, I think you could. Easily.

You guys don't seem to realize that the high, thin, clear air allows much longer distance vision. MUCH longer.

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Ex-jazz

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 482
Re: Icon Philosophy - Approach
« Reply #81 on: March 26, 2010, 05:28:14 PM »

I hope the HTC will bring the 'CM forced icon type' option same time with the next gen h2h.

Then the 'No Icons' / 'Friendly Icons Only' interested folks can host the rooms for same minded people.

Everybody are happy.

Offline Dawger

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 925
Re: Icon Philosophy - Approach
« Reply #82 on: March 29, 2010, 09:40:31 AM »
Here's another Real Life example that I posted a long time ago when this endlessly brought up subject was being discussed.





Your "REAL LIFE" example is demonstrably false. It is actually physically impossible. The resolution of the human eye just isn't anywhere near that good.

But don't let science stand in the way of a good story proving your point.

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: Icon Philosophy - Approach
« Reply #83 on: March 29, 2010, 09:59:29 AM »
Dawger, a lot of real life pilots actually fly AH. A lot of folks that have an interest, passion, fascination with all aspects aviation, and along with that many hundreds, if not thousands of years of accumulated first hand experience.

Many even combat fighter pilots.

They all state, with first hand evidence, that this is so, and you claim "it's not physically possible" -- sorry but you're wrong on this one. Making out individual tail codes is and was an everyday thing for real pilots. In this game you'd be delusional to pretend you can do it outside of close formation.

Offline dedalos

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8052
Re: Icon Philosophy - Approach
« Reply #84 on: March 29, 2010, 10:28:34 AM »
Your "REAL LIFE" example is demonstrably false. It is actually physically impossible. The resolution of the human eye just isn't anywhere near that good.

But don't let science stand in the way of a good story proving your point.

What science is that?  All you did was present a story (not even a good one lol).  Science details please . . . . .waiting lol
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline gyrene81

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11629
Re: Icon Philosophy - Approach
« Reply #85 on: March 29, 2010, 10:46:19 AM »
What science is that?  All you did was present a story (not even a good one lol).  Science details please . . . . .waiting lol
LOL...troll.  :lol


I was gonna post a similar response to Toad's b.s. but...I thought I would leave it to someone else. I've been in the cockpit (as a guest) in military aircraft...cargo planes, trainers and helicopter...and I've been a frequent passenger in commercial aircraft and I always book a window seat...not once have I seen or heard a pilot say that he could readily identify another aircraft at 2 miles with his bare eyes, let alone count the windows on a passenger jet. Nor have I been able to look down on a highway from 20,000+ feet up and see anything more than different colored dots moving along the highways...or see a lot of detail on another aircraft more than a mile away. Yes the air at 4 miles up is very clear but if the sun is shining the clear air makes reflections worse...and glare prevents you from seeing as clearly as you would think...it's a good time to be wearing polarized sunglasses.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline Dawger

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 925
Re: Icon Philosophy - Approach
« Reply #86 on: March 29, 2010, 11:15:29 AM »
Dawger, a lot of real life pilots actually fly AH. A lot of folks that have an interest, passion, fascination with all aspects aviation, and along with that many hundreds, if not thousands of years of accumulated first hand experience.

Many even combat fighter pilots.

They all state, with first hand evidence, that this is so, and you claim "it's not physically possible" -- sorry but you're wrong on this one. Making out individual tail codes is and was an everyday thing for real pilots. In this game you'd be delusional to pretend you can do it outside of close formation.

1. I am a real life pilot with right around 10,000 hours. Just yesterday I flew from Monterey, Ca back home to Houston at 39,000 feet. I have some experience with the real life example Toad presented including out over the North Atlantic. My real world experience tells me it is BS. For the record my last FAA First Class physical my eyesight tested at 20/15 distance and 20/10 near.

2. I have done a ton of research on this particular subject including gathering the opinion of real world fighter pilots both current and former. I have used folks that were very familiar with WWII aircraft and folks that weren't in the course of testing the ability to differentiate aircraft silhouettes at specific scale ranges (scale since I don't have access to life size versions of WWII aircraft unfortunately). I have tested the visibility of tail markings from the largest aircraft in WWII. I have tested the identification range of modern aircraft over known distances using people that were familiar and those who were not. I have reached some pretty good conclusions that I find match the information I have gotten from reliable sources. I was lucky enough to discover some of the distance estimation rules of thumb used by current military pilots and they correspond to what I have found to be true. An example is the engine intake on the F15 used by USAF pilots to estimate distance. There are others. If you look you can find information on the internet regarding these formation flying thumb rules. An example is when you can read the NAVY (or MARINES) on the fuselage of the T34C you are three planes lengths away approximately. Knowing the size of those letters and the length of the aircraft gives one a good idea of the visual acuity of the average military pilot.

3. There is known science regarding human visual acuity. It is easily accessible on the internet. 20/20 vision is a measurement of resolution.That resolution is 1/60 of a degree. Any object that subtends less than that will not be distinct. A 12 inch diameter aircraft window at 12,172 feet does not subtend 1/60 of a degree. In order to do that it would need to be 42 inches in diameter. It simply would not be visible. Even a person with 20/10 distant vision could not resolve 12 inch diameter windows at 2 nautical miles. It is much more likely the brain painted the windows in because they are expected to be there. Your brain does stuff like that.

So the issue is why people keep insisting on using obviously false anecdotal evidence?

Mostly fear of change. The current icon system is demonstrably inaccurate. It does not account for two of the most important components of visual identification, size and aspect angle. The point of my research and others who helped was to present ideas for modification of the icon system so that it would more closely resemble real life while recognizing the limitations of the computer monitor. The research I and others engaged in indicated that the computer monitor did a great job at long distance because airplanes far away in real life are dots. At extremely close range the computer did a very good job. It was the middle ranges from about 2000 feet out to the distance a particular model becomes a color smudge in real life that the computer needs help. The idea was to propose an icon system that accounted for aircraft size and aspect at these middle ranges and did not present more information than would be available in reality while also accounting for the shortcoming of the video system at those middle ranges. We came up with some very good ideas but there is very little interest in the WWII MMOG community in a better icon system so there is very little interest on the part of the game developer (understandably so).

My interest is in an icon system that accounts for the limitations of the computer while preserving as much of the uncertainty of aerial combat that exists in reality, especially in the WWII age. I have given up all hope of this ever being done because it is actively discouraged by the community.

NOTE: I cannot even begin to count the number of times I have typed this exact same information or something very similar over the past 13 years. I am pretty sure this makes me fit Einstein's definition of insanity very closely.

 :airplane:

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Re: Icon Philosophy - Approach
« Reply #87 on: March 29, 2010, 11:36:00 AM »
Yah, Dawger, you're right.

I only have about 20k+ flight hours and I only specifically did that experiment years ago to counter clueless guys like you on this very BBS. I only had the other pilot verify that he could see the same detail that I could see. But I appreciate that you are unable to accept this and feel highly qualified to tell me what two guys actually doing the experiment saw. (Oh..and I defer to Gyrene's vast experience in the air too...after all, he actually sat in the cockpit!)

Here's another REAL LIFE example...call BS on this one if you like too. This one is from the Navy's T-38 Prep Course. Note that you can see DETAIL on the pilot's helmet from about 100 yards. You can clearly read ~8" high numbers from about 165 yards. Try that in AH.

Quote
Distance behind Lead can be estimated by noting  the amount of detail on Lead's aircraft.
Clearly reading the side number approximates 500 feet; the ability to discern detail on the lead
pilot's helmet will indicate range inside of 300 feet.


http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation2/P-367/P-3670083.htm

Once again, the visual cues available in AH (outside of zoom) are seriously lacking in AH when compared to real life. Sorry you can't accept the truth.

Here's another old thread about visual cues with examples and answers taken from a UPT T-38 Formation Flying Techniques guide.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,25522.15.html

See if you can answer these two questions or read the thread and find the answers:

Question 1: You are flying #2 in "Trail" position (60 degree cone aft) at what distance are the numbers on the vertical stablizer "easily visible but not readable"?
All answer distances are in FEET.

A. 250'
B. 500'
C. 750'
D. 1000'
E. 1250'

Question 2: Still flying as #2 in Trail, at what distance do the "burner cans" (exhaust nozzles) assume a "black figure 8" shape rather than just a black blob or oval? All answer distances are in FEET.

A. 250'
B. 500'
C. 750'
D. 1000'
E. 1250'

Now these are for pilots with 20/20 vision.


The tail numbers are 10" numbers.



An view of the burner cans:




If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Dawger

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 925
Re: Icon Philosophy - Approach
« Reply #88 on: March 29, 2010, 12:24:27 PM »
Yah, Dawger, you're right.

I only have about 20k+ flight hours and I only specifically did that experiment years ago to counter clueless guys like you on this very BBS. I only had the other pilot verify that he could see the same detail that I could see. But I appreciate that you are unable to accept this and feel highly qualified to tell me what two guys actually doing the experiment saw. (Oh..and I defer to Gyrene's vast experience in the air too...after all, he actually sat in the cockpit!)

Here's another REAL LIFE example...call BS on this one if you like too. This one is from the Navy's T-38 Prep Course. Note that you can see DETAIL on the pilot's helmet from about 100 yards. You can clearly read ~8" high numbers from about 165 yards. Try that in AH.


http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation2/P-367/P-3670083.htm

Once again, the visual cues available in AH (outside of zoom) are seriously lacking in AH when compared to real life. Sorry you can't accept the truth.

Here's another old thread about visual cues with examples and answers taken from a UPT T-38 Formation Flying Techniques guide.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,25522.15.html

See if you can answer these two questions or read the thread and find the answers:

Question 1: You are flying #2 in "Trail" position (60 degree cone aft) at what distance are the numbers on the vertical stablizer "easily visible but not readable"?
All answer distances are in FEET.

A. 250'
B. 500'
C. 750'
D. 1000'
E. 1250'

Question 2: Still flying as #2 in Trail, at what distance do the "burner cans" (exhaust nozzles) assume a "black figure 8" shape rather than just a black blob or oval? All answer distances are in FEET.

A. 250'
B. 500'
C. 750'
D. 1000'
E. 1250'

Now these are for pilots with 20/20 vision.


The tail numbers are 10" numbers.

(Image removed from quote.)

An view of the burner cans:

(Image removed from quote.)




I notice you went from clearly seeing 12 inch diameter windows at 12,172 feet to 10 inch letters at 1250 feet.

According to the math 20/20 vision would allow you to see the black letters against the white background at about 1432 feet (They would appear as a dark gray rectangle at this distance) so i would assume 1250 would be the correct answer. This is the same math that says you can't see 12 inch diameter windows at 2 nautical miles.

A more exact answer is only achievable with precise measurement of the width of the numbers and the white space between them as this is determinative in vision resolution. Somewhat less than 1432 feet is the best answer I can give without that information.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 12:32:28 PM by Dawger »

Offline Dawger

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 925
Re: Icon Philosophy - Approach
« Reply #89 on: March 29, 2010, 12:26:59 PM »
Also, I am well aware of the inability of the computer to resolve text and graphics painted on aircraft. I do not posit that no icons is realistic in all respects. If you carefully read my post you would see I am interested in a new icon system that accounts for the limitations of the computer while preserving the uncertainty of the real world.

The real world examples you posted are an excellent source to develop such a thing.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 12:28:48 PM by Dawger »