Sherman VC firefly vs. M4A3 (75mm)

[1carbine]

In real life how did they compare in turret speed and track speed, armor, and firepower (17 pound gun vs. 75mm gun).

[E25280]

Same in almost every respect except the gun.  The 17lbr on the Firefly was arguably the best anti-tank gun in the allied arsenal.  It's armor penetration capability was better than the Tiger's 88.

In contrast, the 75mm was a compromise weapon for a vehicle whose primary role was seen as supporting infantry, not killing other tanks.  (US Army doctrine of the time said special tank destroyer units were to engage the enemy tanks.)  Although capable of destroying medium and light armored vehicles, it struggled against the German heavy tanks like the Tiger and Panther.

[Wildcat1]

well the first difference, and probably the biggest one, is that the firefly wasnt a dedicated tank, it was a tank-destroyer, meaning it was designed to sneak around and flank enemy tanks, not lead an assault, which is the tank's role. basically the only other major difference is the gun. all the British did with the M4A3 was fit it with their 76.2mm (17 pounder) anti-tank gun. this gun gave the firefly better killing ability at longer ranges.

the sherman's 75mm gun proved ineffective against the German armor, although against the Panzer IV (the model in-game), it faired quite well.

as for the apparent rocket launchers, there were 60 of them, 107mm rockets that will make for extreme town killers  

but turret speed, engine power, and armor are the same with both the M4A3 and M4A4

[Krusty]

the sherman's 75mm gun proved ineffective against the German armor, although against the Panzer IV (the model in-game), it faired quite well.

If you count charging 6 shermans in, losing 5 so the last guy could sneak behind the panzer while he was aimed at poor schmuck #5 and shoot it in the engine compartment from behind, sure, then let's say it "fared quite well"....

The 75mm on the sherman won't kill a panzer in a frontal battle. It may not even damage it in a side battle. It will be one step above an M8 and one step below a T34 (without HVAP) in terms of hitting power.

[Wildcat1]

If you count charging 6 shermans in, losing 5 so the last guy could sneak behind the panzer while he was aimed at poor schmuck #5 and shoot it in the engine compartment from behind, sure, then let's say it "fared quite well"....

The 75mm on the sherman won't kill a panzer in a frontal battle. It may not even damage it in a side battle. It will be one step above an M8 and one step below a T34 (without HVAP) in terms of hitting power.

i must've read the site wrong then 

its kind of the same relationship between the T-34/76 and the T-34/85

[E25280]

The 75mm on the sherman won't kill a panzer in a frontal battle. It may not even damage it in a side battle. It will be one step above an M8 and one step below a T34 (without HVAP) in terms of hitting power.

One step below?  One site of many that shows the US M3 gun on the Sherman was just as capable as the Russian F-34 gun on the T-34/76.

Appropriate line is the "75mm M3 Tank Gun."
http://www.freeweb.hu/gva/weapons/usa_guns5.html

Appropriate line is "F-34 and ZiS-5"
http://www.freeweb.hu/gva/weapons/soviet_guns5.html

The Russian tank has the edge with APCR (our HVAP), but with standard AP rounds the guns are nearly identical.

[Guppy35]

well the first difference, and probably the biggest one, is that the firefly wasnt a dedicated tank, it was a tank-destroyer, meaning it was designed to sneak around and flank enemy tanks, not lead an assault, which is the tank's role. basically the only other major difference is the gun. all the British did with the M4A3 was fit it with their 76.2mm (17 pounder) anti-tank gun. this gun gave the firefly better killing ability at longer ranges.

the sherman's 75mm gun proved ineffective against the German armor, although against the Panzer IV (the model in-game), it faired quite well.

as for the apparent rocket launchers, there were 60 of them, 107mm rockets that will make for extreme town killers  

but turret speed, engine power, and armor are the same with both the M4A3 and M4A4

I'm curious where you got this idea that the Firefly wasn't a dedicated tank?  They were mixed into British armored units along with the regular 75mm Shermans.  Their numbers were fewer, but their role, the same if not more likely to be out front to deal with the Tigers and Panthers.  The Firefly was built on the M4A4 Sherman Hull btw

[FireDrgn]

The gun on the t34/76   is the suckage

[BigKev03]

As previous posters have noted the gun on the Firefly was far superior to the 75mm on the M4A3.  Armor was about the same except for the turret.  The turret on the Firefly was a bick thick due to the need to modify the turret a bit to handle the gun.  Other than that they were both similar in all other aspects.  The big drawback to the 75mm was the penetration ability of the gun.  Though I imagine in the game it will get a good following and fair use.

BigKev

[1carbine]

So from what I've heard so far. Just as fast and tough excluding the turret, and should do just as well as a T/34 with a slower turret speed but with faster reloading.  doesn't sound bad if modeled properly 

[Clone155]

If you count charging 6 shermans in, losing 5 so the last guy could sneak behind the panzer while he was aimed at poor schmuck #5 and shoot it in the engine compartment from behind, sure, then let's say it "fared quite well"....

I disagree. I think the m4a3 will be a perfect match for the panzer, and I think you might be thinking of a tiger.

[ReDeViL2]

Same in almost every respect except the gun.  The 17lbr on the Firefly was arguably the best anti-tank gun in the allied arsenal.  It's armor penetration capability was better than the Tiger's 88.

In contrast, the 75mm was a compromise weapon for a vehicle whose primary role was seen as supporting infantry, not killing other tanks.  (US Army doctrine of the time said special tank destroyer units were to engage the enemy tanks.)  Although capable of destroying medium and light armored vehicles, it struggled against the German heavy tanks like the Tiger and Panther.

Ive never read or heard of a German Soldier say that they were afraid of any Allied AT gun...and this is a quote written during the 2nd World War..."The German 88 converted more to Christianity then Peter and Paul combined".  88 was best AT gun of the war and it wasn't even created for that purpose.  Case...rested.

[Karnak]

I disagree. I think the m4a3 will be a perfect match for the panzer, and I think you might be thinking of a tiger.

It will be like a slow T-34/76 with a higher rate of fire.  How do you feel in a T-34/76 against the Panzer IV H?  Kill/death stats in AH indicate that isn't remotely close to a perfect match.

Ive never read or heard of a German Soldier say that they were afraid of any Allied AT gun...and this is a quote written during the 2nd World War..."The German 88 converted more to Christianity then Peter and Paul combined".  88 was best AT gun of the war and it wasn't even created for that purpose.  Case...rested.

Read more.  The 17lber on the Firefly made them target #1 for German tankers for a reason.

Also, keep in mind that there isn't simply a "88mm tank gun", but multiple versions.  The 17lber on the Firefly and the 7.5cm KwK 42 L/70 on the Panther are superior to the 8.8cm KwK 36 L/56 on the Tiger I, but probably inferior to the 8.8cm KwK 43 L/71 on the Tiger II.

[stephen]

In a Panzer IV vs T3476 match up, id take the T34 every time...

Id say that the 76mm on the T3476 is adequate vs the MK IV...., and the armor is above par, and what gives the Russian tank the edge in any long range engagment.

I think the Sherman will probaly fair nearly as well against the MKIV, as its all down to gunnery really.
Low velocity or not, MkIV's are vulnerable in the turret, and they tend to blow up when ANY AP is applied to them.

The old hands will give the pazers a run for thier money..., the Tiger on the other hand is going to be another story, and Firfly vs Sherman just doesnt warent any thought, the VC FIREFLYS are gonna rape A3's wholesale, just like everything else.

[humble]

Historically the firefly was fielded 1 tank per platoon (4 tanks) and utilized in an "over watch" role. It was not in the rotation for lead tank. The Germans were very aware of the Firefly and would often ignore the approaching tanks while they looked for the Firefly. Standing orders were to engage the Firefly 1st which led to the British using fake extenders on the guntube ala "Kelly's Hero's" to confuse the Germans on which tanks were actually firefly's.