Author Topic: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene  (Read 7680 times)

Offline FireDrgn

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #135 on: May 04, 2010, 10:58:18 PM »
"Absolute truths are the basis for science."

There are no absolute truths in science, just probabilities. Good science is a methodology for investigation, no more, no less. Observe, measure, collate and test the resulting data, hypothesize, test the hypothesis, publish the results - and criticize openly as and if necessary.

 :cool:

Ok truth is absolute  truth.  Are we redefining what truth is?  We dont need to add  absolute do we?
 
How do you know the probabilities with out truth?   1 out of one million.  You would have to know truth 999,999  times out of a million. Do you not realize your not making a probability claim ,when you say you KNOW what the probability's are, you are making a truth claim!

If you do not have the truth then there is no way you can claim any probability. 

Your defining your faith you just dont know it .

Where do you get 1 out of 1million any ways?  That cant be anywere close.      No where on plant earth are we seeing 1 out of a million apples fall UP.





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Offline Sonicblu

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #136 on: May 05, 2010, 10:59:11 AM »
"Absolute truths are the basis for science."

There are no absolute truths in science, just probabilities. Good science is a methodology for investigation, no more, no less. Observe, measure, collate and test the resulting data, hypothesize, test the hypothesis, publish the results - and criticize openly as and if necessary.

 :cool:

Hmm, YOU just made a truth claim. " there are no absolute truths in science" if this isnt the truth what would you guess the probablilities are that it is the truth.

There is a huge difference between "basis" for science and "IN" science.

Are you talkin fornesic science or empirical science.  YOu are right with forensice science when you say "in" science. the earth is round is has a high probability of being true.

IF you are talking empirical observations in science you are wrong. the ball in front of me is round. I am 100% sure that is a truth.

My claim is you have to have truth as a basis for science.

The methodology has to have a absolute truth to make good science.


Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #137 on: May 05, 2010, 11:48:19 AM »
FireDrgn and Sonic - truth and absolute truth are actually fairly ambiguous phrases, but I think I understand what you are both getting at.

As simba said, science is a methodology for investigation. If it works you end up with a theory which explains and predicts your observations. This theory will contain a mixture of a priori propositions (which rely on experience) and a posteriori propositions (which do not). the a posteriori propositions might be described as truths in this context. however, the theory relies on all of its propositions working together, so the net result is a priori because part of it does rely on observation/experience.

so although the theory might contain elements of what you describe as truth, it ultimately relies on observation, so overall cannot ever be the absolute truth.


btw Sonic - you are making a distinction between forensic science and empirical science which isnt relevant here. forensic science is just empirical science used in a legal context.
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Offline FireDrgn

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #138 on: May 05, 2010, 01:45:32 PM »
This is the original stament.

"I'm uncomfortable with people using the concept of proof, its appropriate for formal logic or mathematics but is an impossible goal for empirical science. scientific theories arent either true or false (they would be theroems if they could be proved,) they are merely tools we can use to predict or explain observed phenomena. as such they arent either true or false, but they are on a sliding scale of usefulness depending on their application. "


  I agree with "concept of proof is appropriate for formal logic or mathematics"   Clearly this is implyed as true at the least  proof by bozon and simba neither have offered a counter claim to this.  ITs a contradiction with the science they have offered.          Claiming no truth using probability that requires a truth claim.

The biggest contradiction is  They are USING  MATH.. something they have allready agreed to "concept of proof is appropriate for formal logic or mathematics"    Then they claim i cant ask for proof or truth.  When they just offerd PROOF yet claim they dont have it...

All im seeing here is 3 rings.  <S>












 
 
 
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #139 on: May 05, 2010, 06:17:33 PM »
The biggest contradiction is  They are USING  MATH.. something they have allready agreed to "concept of proof is appropriate for formal logic or mathematics"    Then they claim i cant ask for proof or truth.  When they just offerd PROOF yet claim they dont have it...

no contradiction there, like I explained above a theory in empirical science will require a mixture of propositions which depend on observation, and those that dont (ie. maths). if any part of the theory depends on observations, the theory overall cannot be proved or absolutely true.
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Offline Sonicblu

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #140 on: May 05, 2010, 09:49:52 PM »
What is absolutely true is always correct, everywhere, all the time, under any condition. An entity's ability to discern these things is irrelevant to that state of truth."


It would be my guess that we are actually discusing several different things.

I thought that we were discussing the basis of science containing absolute truths. i.e logic math empirical observations. and my position that science has not branch off from philosophy because it can't.
With clever wording it has change to "in" science and now scientific theories
are not truth, just probabilities. Which i Agree with.
I think probability is just a fancy way of saying ah we have to use faith to make up the difference, or if not faith some kind of magic. Faith being defined as "belief in something base on evidence of things not seen."
That is why in a court of law they call it beyond a reasonable doubt.

I just don't like people presenting something as fact ( absolute truth  ) when if fact it is probable or more likely less than probable.

So I think we are in agreement. All the science presented so far is just probable not FACT.

Offline Penguin

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #141 on: May 06, 2010, 07:16:15 PM »
Even so, it's the most probable thing we can come up with.  I'd like to see you or anyone else on this board do better. 

The problem with all of your arguments is that you are saying that we cannot rely on science because we can't post a 100% probability sticker on it.  However, the kind of science we rely on every day would seem arcane to the very edges of what is being done right now. 

Take this analogy for example:

A mathematician, an engineer, and an scientist are standing in a dance hall.  All of the men in the room are on one side, while all of the women are on the other.  The men and women will advance exactly half of the distance to each other every three seconds.  The question is posed to the three, when will the dancers meet?

Mathematician: Never, the sequence is infinite
Engineer: My model won't let them touch
Physicist: In a few minutes they'll be close enough

As you can see, the parameters define the theory, as they can always be changed, and at a certain point they have been changed so much that the theory is out of place.  For instance, Newtonian physics has speed limits, and at those limits, Relativity takes over.  This doesn't mean, that within Newtonian physics parameters, that it won't work at all.  It just means that when you change the parameters of the system enough, you will eventually need a new understanding of it in the places where the parameters have been changed.

So unless your kids play brick factory with a supercollider in the backyard, or you zip through the sun on your way to work, much of the new science we have will not be applicable for a while.  As you can see, we could also go to your hypotheses and change the parameters with the express purpose of testing their limits and then using our results to make them useless.

It's like the constant Pi, how many digits do you want?

-Penguin

Offline Angus

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #142 on: May 07, 2010, 10:11:50 AM »
2 + 2 = 4

A2 + b2 = c2

Used to be called science, and is now....somewhat....beyond debate  :devil
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #143 on: May 07, 2010, 10:38:10 AM »
Hmm, YOU just made a truth claim. " there are no absolute truths in science" if this isnt the truth what would you guess the probablilities are that it is the truth.

There is a huge difference between "basis" for science and "IN" science.

Are you talkin fornesic science or empirical science.  YOu are right with forensice science when you say "in" science. the earth is round is has a high probability of being true.

IF you are talking empirical observations in science you are wrong. the ball in front of me is round. I am 100% sure that is a truth.




Yet we know that the Earth isn't truly round.  Nor is the ball in front of you.
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #144 on: May 07, 2010, 05:16:27 PM »

Yet we know that the Earth isn't truly round.  Nor is the ball in front of you.

Again, it depends on how you shift the parameters.  Round, however, does not mean spherical, round means that the object is curved, spherical means that the object is a perfect sphere.

-Penguin

Offline bozon

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #145 on: May 08, 2010, 06:17:17 AM »
...
Mathematician: Never, the sequence is infinite
Engineer: My model won't let them touch
Physicist: In a few minutes they'll be close enough
In the version I know they go to a "woman of questionable morals" (for the pious word filter)  and the pimp only allows them to get closer to half the distance with each step.
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #146 on: May 08, 2010, 07:33:29 AM »
To each his own!  :lol

-Penguin

Offline FireDrgn

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #147 on: May 08, 2010, 11:58:39 AM »
no contradiction there, like I explained above a theory in empirical science will require a mixture of propositions which depend on observation, and those that dont (ie. maths). if any part of the theory depends on observations, the theory overall cannot be proved or absolutely true.

Im having trouble here Rthomes.   So you r saying they are not offering proof of probability? 


You claim there is NO truth or false>  Yet  in order to prove  your point  Bozon Simba  claim  there is false and there is Truth.   How is that not a contradiction?

<S>
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Offline Jayhawk

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #148 on: May 08, 2010, 12:49:30 PM »
You gotta learn to:

LOOK EVERYBODY!  I GOT MY NAME IN LIGHTS!

Folks, play nice.

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #149 on: May 08, 2010, 04:26:40 PM »
You claim there is NO truth or false>  Yet  in order to prove  your point  Bozon Simba  claim  there is false and there is Truth.   How is that not a contradiction?

I'm not claiming that at all. in my example the parts of the theory that use maths can be proved, they are either true or false. The parts of the theory that rely on observation or measurement cannot be proved, they are best guesses at the properties of reality that we are trying to model.

If any parts of the theory cannot be proved, the entire theory cannot be proved.

Because all empirical science relies to some degree on observation or measurement, its theories cannot therefore be proved.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2010, 04:32:09 PM by RTHolmes »
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