Author Topic: More Camel torque please  (Read 6987 times)

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2010, 10:01:44 AM »
I flew the Camel almost exclusively for the first week or two of WWI.

I think a big part of the problem with it's k/d is that you can't get the nose stabalized to take a shot.  By that I mean that, with the Camel, there's a noticable dead area in the center of my stick and any attempt to correct my aim causes an over-reaction in the planes nose once I finally get it to move.  This, in turn, never allows me to align a shot and spray and pray is the best I can hope for.  None of the other WWI or WWII aircraft display this tendency, at least not to the extreem degree the Camel does.  The Dr1 by comparison has a very stable nose and is a solid gun platform, even though it's also a radial.

For that reason, I gave up on the Camel and, in large part on WWI.  I really wanted to fly and like the Camel but that dead area in the stick was just too frustrating.

Other than that I think it flys as described by most accounts, both on it's own merit and in comparison to the other AC modeled.  It's quite cabable in any type of engagement and it does display a strong preference for right vs. left turns.
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Offline AWwrgwy

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2010, 10:50:30 AM »

You might want to actually fly WW1 before you make a fool of yourself.

Exactly what are you speaking of?

Both A/C have rotary engines so torque effects are similar.  So, as I said before, it's not the torque in this case as opposed to the Dr 7 which doesn't suffer from the turning mass of a rotary engine.

As I also stated, you can move your head enough to pretty much see around the top wing on the Dr 1 where in the Camel you can easily lose sight of the enemy once they cannot bee seen through the "hole" in the upper wing.

Anything I've gotten incorrect?

Just based on my, albeit, limited flying in the WW1 arenas.


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Offline SCTusk

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2010, 11:16:04 AM »
Sorry to hear about the deadzone problem BaldEagl, I'm wondering if that might be an issue with your stick or something as I don't have any problems with the Camel as a gun platform.

On the turning question, you said:

Quote
it does display a strong preference for right vs. left turns.

Again I don't see that; not even on time trials. Possibly I'm abit ham fisted and don't notice, but if there is a difference, is it significant enough to justify this:

Quote
Because of the faster turning capability to the right, to change heading 90° to the left, many pilots preferred to do it by turning 270° to the right.
(Wikipedia)

If that anecdote can be believed, there must have been a huge advantage to turning right rather than left. I'm just not seeing it in the FM.


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Offline Wmaker

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2010, 12:30:58 PM »
Dr.I's and Camel's wingloadings are very close to each other but Dr.I's wings have higher lift coefficients. Therefore, is hardly suprising that Dr.I has a smaller turn radius than the Camel.
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Offline Bino

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2010, 05:30:39 PM »
Oh..."torque."  I misread the thread subject.  Guess the wife's right that I *do* have a dirty mind.   :devil


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Offline SCTusk

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2010, 10:13:36 PM »
Quote
Dr.I's wings have higher lift coefficients. Therefore, is hardly suprising that Dr.I has a smaller turn radius than the Camel.

I'm sorry Wmaker but aerodynamics is a complex business, lift coefficient (even with reference to wing loading) alone doesn't prove anything. Even what appears as a simple question like 'which a/c turns better?' requires further definition. We'd need to consider whether we're asking about turn radius, rate of turn, immediate or sustained, etc so it's no wonder these issues are often clouded by misunderstanding. Usually the best turn rate is achieved well above stall speed, while the smallest turn radius requires a speed just above the stall.

I'm suggesting that the legendary turn rate of the Camel when turning right due to gyroscopic effects (not sustained, just immediate) be properly modelled if possible. If not, then your own suggestion of reduced speed in the Dr1 would probably be a good workaround.



 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2010, 10:16:11 PM by SCTusk »
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Offline Ghosth

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2010, 06:02:33 AM »
AWwrgwy said, and I quote

"Exactly what are you speaking of?

"Both A/C have rotary engines so torque effects are similar.  So, as I said before, it's not the torque in this case as opposed to the Dr 7 which doesn't suffer from the turning mass of a rotary engine."

How is the Camel supposed to have a huge advantage in a instantaneous turn to the right over the Dr1 when then both have similar motors with similar torque?

Compared to the DVII both the Camel and the Dr1 do have a very tight initial right turn.

But there is no huge advantage to the camel compared to the DR1.
That brings it back to what everyone else said.

Basically that a few mph slower  for the DR1 is offset by its excellent views. After all at even 5mph it takes a long long time to go from 300 yards to over 800 yards and get out of effective shooting range.
It might be that if we could get the fights to start up around 8 - 10k that you would see a different outcome.
I suspect you'd see a lot more Dr1's with ripped wings until they learned how to fly it up there.

But you really can't complain about the modeling when you really have not proven that there is anything wrong with it.
Your just not seeing the big super advantage that you thought you'd see.


Offline Wmaker

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2010, 06:19:17 AM »
I'm sorry Wmaker but aerodynamics is a complex business, lift coefficient (even with reference to wing loading) alone doesn't prove anything. .... We'd need to consider whether we're asking about turn radius, rate of turn, immediate or sustained, etc so it's no wonder these issues are often clouded by misunderstanding. Usually the best turn rate is achieved well above stall speed, while the smallest turn radius requires a speed just above the stall.


<sigh> What exactly did I say? Which was I talking about, rate or radius? I think I distinctly said, smaller radius because that's what more lift per weight will give you. Aerodynamics indeed is complex business, I suggest you take even a small clance into that direction.

Again, they both have similar weighing rotary engines turning into the same direction. Just because few books happen to specially mention Camel doesn't mean that it has some magical properties the other rotary engined fighters of the era didn't have.
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Offline SCTusk

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2010, 10:27:56 AM »
Quote
Aerodynamics indeed is complex business, I suggest you take even a small clance into that direction.

Wmaker I took your advice and had a small glance at one of my old photo albums. Several old black and white photos of a couple of aircraft I designed and built (and one of which I test flew) back in the early 80's. I was also inspired by your comments to revisit some of the books in my aviation library concerning aerodynamics. I thank you for that. I also thank you for the benefit of your clearly superior knowledge on the subject.

I'd like to add, that in respect to the Camel, the literature (including pilot anecdotes) suggests an unusual ability to turn to the right rapidly (I cannot find reference to whether this was sustained or initial, but I suspect initial) due to the placement of most of the mass in the first seven feet of the fuselage combined with gyroscopic effects; that the peculiarity of the design, which concentrated the centre of mass close to the centre of gravity caused an instability which made the aircraft difficult, even dangerous to fly yet gave it remarkable manoeuvrability. Such a potent ability that turning left 90 degrees was often performed by turning right 270 degrees. There is a similar amount of literature on the Dr1, none of which mentions such an ability, or the accompanying vices, but does mention a predisposition to regular tight turns and generally pleasing handling characteristics (i.e the Dr1 does not appear to have had the unusual instability required to produce the aforementioned ability).

I don't know any Camel or Dr1 pilots; I only have what little information there is in a 'few books' as you say, and my own experience in aviation which goes back well over 40 years. There is obviously some opposition to my suggestion, fair enough it's just a 'wish', posted I believe in the correct forum. I have no problem with that. Neither do I have a problem with anyone who chooses to presume that they know the truth of the matter (I think I've made it clear that I'm referencing historical material here and am open to new evidence). The thing I have a problem with (apparently) is communicating the main points of my argument, unless what I've seen here is deliberate obstinacy, in which case (as I'm sure you're aware) nothing I say will make any difference.     
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2010, 11:51:43 AM »
Wmaker I took your advice and had a small glance at one of my old photo albums. Several old black and white photos of a couple of aircraft I designed and built (and one of which I test flew) back in the early 80's. I was also inspired by your comments to revisit some of the books in my aviation library concerning aerodynamics. I thank you for that. I also thank you for the benefit of your clearly superior knowledge on the subject.

Considering this backround of yours, I'm truly baffled of the angle you chose to approach this issue. :headscratch: Considering your backround, I would think you would have first tested both aircraft in the game to determine their turning radius to both directions. Then found out the liftcoefficients, wingloadings and put them through the lift equation just to see if the things are in the right ballpark...instead of saying: "Because so and so many Camels were produced and they shot down this and this many enemies it must turn better to the right in the game and better than Dr.I does."

As I said, I truly am baffled. :confused:


I also thank you for the benefit of your clearly superior knowledge on the subject.

My knowledge or the lack of is actually pretty much irrelevant here. Just reply to what I post and when I'll do the same, our backrounds are irrelevant.


...that the peculiarity of the design, which concentrated the centre of mass close to the centre of gravity caused an instability which made the aircraft difficult, even dangerous to fly yet gave it remarkable manoeuvrability. Such a potent ability that turning left 90 degrees was often performed by turning right 270 degrees.

I don't quite see how this kind of layout helps aircraft to have faster turn rate or radius in a sustained turn. Except small benefit of keeping the moments arms between center of lift and center of gravity as small as possible (almost non existant?). The stability helps the aircraft to respond quicker to control input and therefore helps to intiate the starts of the maneuvers quicker (ie. instantanius turn rate) but again, I don't see how it helps once the turn enters into the sustainable region. I think you are drawing wrong conclusions from these anecdotes. This type of instability definately adds to the 'percieved' maneuverability through keeping the controls light and very responsive but it basically does nothing to make the sustained turning radius smaller for example.



I don't know any Camel or Dr1 pilots; I only have what little information there is in a 'few books' as you say, and my own experience in aviation which goes back well over 40 years.

None of this alone really helps to determine weather something is modelled wrong or not.

There is obviously some opposition to my suggestion, fair enough it's just a 'wish', posted I believe in the correct forum. I have no problem with that. Neither do I have a problem with anyone who chooses to presume that they know the truth of the matter (I think I've made it clear that I'm referencing historical material here and am open to new evidence). The thing I have a problem with (apparently) is communicating the main points of my argument, unless what I've seen here is deliberate obstinacy, in which case (as I'm sure you're aware) nothing I say will make any difference.      

The opposition comes from the fact that flight models aren't changed with the whim of an opinion. Your wish makes about as much sense as me asking Bf109 to do everything better than all other Aces High fighters because it scored the most kills in WWII out of all fighters that took part to the war.

Also, nowhere have I said I know "the truth" of the matter. I just said that considering the variables involved the percieved turning radiuses of both of these fighters seem very believeable in game. If you think something is wrong it's your job to do in game testing and point out any discrepencies you can find against hard data. HTC doesn't pull these flight models out of thin air.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2010, 11:53:43 AM by Wmaker »
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2010, 03:31:14 PM »
The stability helps the aircraft to respond quicker to control input and therefore helps to intiate the starts of the maneuvers quicker

Here I course meant to say instability, not stability. Sorry.
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Offline Greebo

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2010, 03:36:22 PM »
I think I read the AH Camel has the most common engine fitted to the aircraft, the 130hp Le Clerget. However a lot of Camels had 150hp Bentley BR-1 engines instead. I believe almost all the RNAS' aircraft were so equipped. In the interests of balance wouldn't an easy fix for the Camel's lack of competitiveness in the MA be another 20hp?

Offline Wmaker

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2010, 04:06:08 PM »
I think I read the AH Camel has the most common engine fitted to the aircraft, the 130hp Le Clerget. However a lot of Camels had 150hp Bentley BR-1 engines instead. I believe almost all the RNAS' aircraft were so equipped. In the interests of balance wouldn't an easy fix for the Camel's lack of competitiveness in the MA be another 20hp?

I too believe that Camel is currently powered with its most common engine, the 130hp Le Clerget 9B. Personally, I always would like to see every plane in its most common configuration when it comes to things like powerplant and armament. I've understood that the Bentley engined planes were "relatively" rare...I mean compared to the 130hp engined ones.

I still think that another look to the top speed of the Dr.I and the dispersion of the WWI mgs in general might go a long way of at least relieving the issue a bit.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2010, 04:10:26 PM by Wmaker »
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Offline SCTusk

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2010, 11:21:07 PM »
In the absence of 'hard data' on the real Camel with regard to this phenomenon the issue moves away from a numbers game and becomes one of judgement. I'm sure HiTech and his team are far more capable and experienced at in game research, development and testing than I am. Hopefully they might take a quick look at the problem (Dr1 dominance), the possible cause (lack of or insufficient gyro effects in Camel) and decide (based on the anecdotal evidence) to tweak the FM a little, not so much perhaps as to induce Camel drivers to turn right 270 degrees instead of turning left 90 degrees; I think too much realism would deter even more players from flying it. But just enough to give it a bit more of a fighting chance.

Quote
I don't quite see how this kind of layout helps aircraft to have faster turn rate or radius in a sustained turn. Except small benefit of keeping the moments arms between center of lift and center of gravity as small as possible (almost non existant?). The (in)stability helps the aircraft to respond quicker to control input and therefore helps to intiate the starts of the maneuvers quicker (ie. instantanius turn rate) but again, I don't see how it helps once the turn enters into the sustainable region. I think you are drawing wrong conclusions from these anecdotes. This type of instability definately adds to the 'percieved' maneuverability through keeping the controls light and very responsive but it basically does nothing to make the sustained turning radius smaller for example.

Ok Wmaker if you own a gyroscope feel free to try this, if not I guess you'll just have to take my word for it. Spin the mass and hold the device arm outstretched such that the mass is turning clockwise from your perspective looking at it from 'behind' (along the axis of rotation). This corresponds to the rotation of the rotary engine in the Camel. Now move your arm stiffly right and left. You should notice some tendency for the device to pull or twist up when going left, and down when going right. This moderate effect known as precession replicates the type of reaction we see in a rotary engine aircraft configured normally, i.e. the engine is way out the front well clear of the centre of gravity, which has been moved rearward by the various other large masses being spread around to create a CG roughly one third the chord back from the leading edge of a wing (pair of wings CG position more complex especially if staggered) situated appropriately further back along the fuselage.

In the case of the Camel however, most of the mass was packed into the nose. The wings were well forward to compensate (bringing the wings to the CG as it were) so much so that the aircraft flew generally 'tail heavy'. So the mass is concentrated close around the CG. To replicate the gyroscopic effects in this situation run the experiment again but this time turn the device right and left using your wrist. You will notice a much more powerful tendency for the device to twist up when going left, and down when going right. Now hold the frame of the device from the side, such that you are looking across the axis of rotation with the left side of the mass moving toward you (i.e. replicating looking down on the Camel from above). Spin up and twist the device clockwise and anticlockwise using your wrist. Notice that the left side of the device pulls or twists down (away from you) when turning the device anti-clockwise, and up (towards you) when turning clockwise.

So the combined effect of the gyroscopic phenomenon in the Camel would have been a tendency to go outside wing high in the turn (which assists in both directions) but nose high in a left turn forcing adverse control input in pitch (stick forward) and extra input in yaw (left rudder) to hold the nose. In a right turn there would have been a requirement for extra pitch input (stick back) and adverse yaw input (left rudder) to hold the nose, but in this case the 'adverse' yaw input is actually a misnomer as it would actually result in simply less right rudder input, and you would generally be wanting the nose to stay down anyway to maintain your speed.

The overall result then is to produce somewhat clumsy turns to the left but rapid turns to the right, and on second thoughts I do believe these would have been sustainable. So long as the motor is still spinning the forces would continue to apply. I doubt very much if hard data existed back in the day (WW1 pilots would have paid scant attention to them anyway), the effect was pronounced enough to have given the Camel a reputation as a dangerous machine for the novice, and induced many of its' pilots to turn right 270 degrees rather than turning left 90 degrees fighting the stick. The Dr1 spinning a lighter mass placed further away from the CG albeit at similar rpm would likely have experienced significantly less of this effect, much like the initial experiment with the gyroscope at arms length, which would explain why the effect seems never to be mentioned in respect of the Dr1 in the available literature.

So I guess the question remains, has this been modelled accurately, or even should it be? Clearly that's not my decision to make, but I suspect that anyone who takes the time to fiddle with a gyroscope and look closely at the evidence will have some thinking to do.       





     
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Offline 715

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2010, 12:25:35 AM »
In my experience the AH Camel turns better to the right (and drops its nose in the process) and turns worse to the left (and raises its nose to the point of stalling easily).  I agree with BaldEagl that the Camel is like a bobble-head in terms of gun stability.  I cannot hit much of anything except in a continuous steady right hand medium g turn (i.e. the stick is not centered).  If I try to line up on a target by actually moving the stick, the thing reacts slowly then overshoots.  I even find it hard to hit targets that are flying straight and steady.  I don't know why it does this nor do I know if it is historically accurate, but it is annoying enough that I gave up on the Camel and on WWI.