Adjustment to OOB for "Angels Eight"

[RTHolmes]

ok ... so what proportion of LFIX(XVI)s vs FVIIIs were fielded by the 2TAF and 9thAF in this campaign?

[Squire]

The Spitfire VIII is a stand in for the almost identical Spitfire VII, of which there was a Wings worth in June 1944. So I included a small # of them (12).  Its in the designers notes I put in at the bottom. So they are in the MINORITY, of any Spits in the setup, and I included them for some variety <gasp!>. HTC accepts skins for the VIII as a VII, the 131 Sqn skin is one such availiable in the downloads section.

The Spitfire 16 (XVI) is the same (or very close) a/c as the Spitfire LF IX (Merlin 66) of that period. It was by far the majority type, and so I decided to use it.

The Bf 109G-14, btw, did not really come out untill July 1944, but thats close enough for our purposes, as it can also stand in for some Bf 109G-6 (late model) types, ergo, I included it as the main Bf 109 in the setup. Also, it shares a very close time line with the Spitfire XVI, and in fairness if the Spit XVI is in the setup it made a lot of sense to me to have the 109G-14?

So, we can have a setup with EITHER Bf 109G-6s and Spit IXs ONLY (both of which are really 1943 a/c), or we can have a setup with the Spit XVI, AND the Bf 109G-14, ( from 1944) and maybe a few others like the VIII and the G-6 to round it out, with the other types included that you see.

Wether the Spit VIII is "porked" and umm, I beg to differ that it is?, I dont see makes any difference to the discussion in any case. If you think its porked, go and ask HTC to "fix" it I guess. ??? This isnt the Bug Reports Forum.

Regards.

[Spikes]

I think July is Summer...making it fine for this use...however the XVI was not put into service until October, the K4 November, and the D9 around that time too...

[TheBug]

Yes Warloc.


Sorry guys just poking a little fun at all the drama.   

[RTHolmes]

The Spitfire VIII is a stand in for the almost identical Spitfire VII, of which there was a Wings worth in June 1944. So I included a small # of them (12).  Its in the designers notes I put in at the bottom. So they are in the MINORITY, of any Spits in the setup, and I included them for some variety <gasp!>.

that was what i was hinting at


I cant help thinking that the XVI causes more trouble than its worth for lots of people. might be best just to delete it and replace it with a '43 LFIX (ie just add 4x.303 to the XVI we already have and make it a MW aircraft) That would cause much less whining right? 

[grizz441]

Wether the Spit VIII is "porked" and umm, I beg to differ that it is?, I dont see makes any difference to the discussion in any case. If you think its porked, go and ask HTC to "fix" it I guess. ??? This isnt the Bug Reports Forum.

Regards.

I said porked relative to the spit16.  Just like the g14 is porked relative to the k4.  Nevermind though.

[Krusty]

While the interest in putting in the spit8 and the spi16 is admirable, I have to point out a flaw in your reasoning.

Spit8 subs in for the spit7, only our spit8 is the exact same plane as our spit16 (LF gearing, almost identical power curves), it's just as fast, climbs just the same, etc. The Spit7 it's subbing for really has little in common, since it was a pressurized high-alt variant using the Merlin 61 engine. I believe that same engine is in our 1942 Spit F.Mk IX, which also has a higher alt gearing on the power curves. The in-game spit9 would be the better stand-in for the spit VII in reality.

As for the spit16, I totally get that you're saying it's the same as the spit LF.MkIXe, and I totally understand the reasons for putting it in, but I have to ask if you considered the GAMEPLAY balance side of things? This plane in-game is a total UFO, and despite its short legs the RAF is going to have a major bonus over the LW because of this plane. So my parting comment is your choice of spit16 fits historically, but please consider it very carefully before throwing it into a FSO setup.


Cheers 

[gyrene81]

Would be a great time to have a 109G-10 wouldn't it? 

[Krusty]

No, since the G10 showed up later than the K4 and performed worse than it.

[RTHolmes]

Spit8 subs in for the spit7, only our spit8 is the exact same plane as our spit16 (LF gearing, almost identical power curves), it's just as fast, climbs just the same, etc. The Spit7 it's subbing for really has little in common, since it was a pressurized high-alt variant using the Merlin 61 engine. I believe that same engine is in our 1942 Spit F.Mk IX, which also has a higher alt gearing on the power curves. The in-game spit9 would be the better stand-in for the spit VII in reality.

As for the spit16, I totally get that you're saying it's the same as the spit LF.MkIXe, and I totally understand the reasons for putting it in, but I have to ask if you considered the GAMEPLAY balance side of things? This plane in-game is a total UFO, and despite its short legs the RAF is going to have a major bonus over the LW because of this plane. So my parting comment is your choice of spit16 fits historically, but please consider it very carefully before throwing it into a FSO setup.

fair point. the VII and VIII were almost identical, share the same airframe, fuel load etc. the performance difference between the HFVII and our LFVIII shouldnt be too much of an issue as iirc the campaign was mainly about CAS, interdiction and med-alt buff escort so I wouldnt expect too many fights at 30k+. depends if you want to simulate the high alt performance or the range.

as for the LFIX/XVI and gameplay issues, they were very capable aircraft and the luftwaffe will just have to deal with it like they had to IRL. you could use the same argument to ban 109s from BoB events because the cannon armament is unfair on the poor .303 armed spits and hurris ...

[Spikes]

Lol.

[Krusty]

fair point. the VII and VIII were almost identical, share the same airframe, fuel load etc. the performance difference between the HFVII and our LFVIII shouldnt be too much of an issue as iirc the campaign was mainly about CAS, interdiction and med-alt buff escort so I wouldnt expect too many fights at 30k+. depends if you want to simulate the high alt performance or the range.

Forgive me if I sound rude, not intending to be, but seemed to me an excuse to put spit8s into the setup for variety. They don't really match the earlier, lesser powered, higher geared spit7s in real life, as they are identical to the spit16s we have in-game. In real life only about 140 or so spit7s were made because when the spit9s came out they were able to perform just as well, and that is why you have HF.Mk IX, F.Mk IX, and LF.Mk IX, because when the task called for it the spit9s could go to alt rather than needing a specialized variant. That's why the spit7s never took off (so to speak).

as for the LFIX/XVI and gameplay issues, they were very capable aircraft and the luftwaffe will just have to deal with it like they had to IRL. you could use the same argument to ban 109s from BoB events because the cannon armament is unfair on the poor .303 armed spits and hurris ...

I don't think it's a fair comparison. The spit8 and spit16 in this game can chase down almost anything (yes, even 109K4s at speed), can out-turn it all, out-climb it all, spit16 can out-roll it all, with 2x instant killer hispanos they can kill anything in a solid single burst and still have plenty of ammo to bag 6-10 more planes before landing.

You might suggest it would be like the LW flying Ki67s in the BOB, faster, better climbing, better shooting, than a "balanced setup" would have.

All I was suggesting is that these planes (notwithstanding historical reasons) ought not to be used lightly in scenarios of FSOs because they DO have a tendency to destabilize and/or tilt the balances to the side that uses them.

[Spikes]

Can't wait to see the tallys for this frame.

[SmokinLoon]

Can't wait to see the tallys for this frame.

Anyone want to bet the Axis won the first frame???  All the crying about the Spit16 was all for naught.  They didn't even factor in, did they? 

[gyrene81]

Anyone want to bet the Axis won the first frame???  All the crying about the Spit16 was all for naught.  They didn't even factor in, did they? 

They factored heavily at A73...G6 is no match for them at 25k