Is This Video Real or Doctored?

[bustr]

I've been looking at this test of a 30mm 108 video for awhile. Is this a real video from WW2 or doctoed by the web site at the bottom of the running video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoLLDi-M3fk&NR=1

History.virtualfighters.cz

http://history.virtualfighters.cz/Czech-RAF-guncamera-films.html

[Ack-Ack]

I don't think it is fake, I've seen similiar footage of tests like that.

Shame the Czech site isn't translated.


ack-ack

[bustr]

So the close up picture of the spit wing single 30mm impact damage from 100yd, in this games terms, is that sevier enough damage to disable the aircraft? That was only an impact with the upper trailing edge of a spit wing. How does our current damage model register the same round hitting the same spot?

The 30mm round had 85 grams of explosive while the standard stick granade had 115 grams. Watching the explosion in the film one has to consider how active and visibley destructive the explosion presents itself. There is a discrepency in the film. The 30mm tracer round did not explode on contact but had a fuse that exploded in contact with liquid.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Text by. www.luft46.com

There were two main types of ammunition for the MK 108 to use, a 30 mm high-explosive self-destroying tracer ("M-Shell" or "Mine-Shell") and a 30 mm incendiary shell. The first type was designed to cause a maximum blast effect by combining a very thin shell casing with the maximum load of explosive. Tests carried out at Rechlin (where most of the Luftwaffe aircraft and weapons tests were done) showed that with a "M-Shell" with 85 grains of explosive, five hits could destroy a B-17 or B-24 bomber. The second type of shell, the incendiary, was meant to be targeted at the fuel tanks of the enemy plane. Since some penetrating force was still needed to overcome the armor or airframe of the target, and not have the shell break up or explode upon contact, a hydrodynamic fuse was fitted so that the shell only exploded once it came into contact with liquid.

[Die Hard]

Tracer and incendiary are two different things. The video looks real enough and the round is probably a 3 cm Minengeschoss Leuchtspur mit Zerleger (day tracer) or 3 cm Minengeschoss Glimmspur mit Zerleger (night tracer).

http://www.xs4all.nl/~robdebie/me163/weapons15.htm#Type N

[MiloMorai]

At 0:56 into the video one can see a hole (above the 'irt' in virtual fighter). Is this caused by the 30mm round?

[Jayhawk]

Ack Ack, Google Translate doesn't do too bad of a job if you want to explore more:

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fhistory.virtualfighters.cz%2FCzech-RAF-guncamera-films.html&sl=auto&tl=en

[bustr]

My aplollogies you are right about the two rounds I booffhed up.

Anyone have an answer about the damage modle in relationship to the explosive damge and location we see in the film?

[Stoney]

So the close up picture of the spit wing single 30mm impact damage from 100yd, in this games terms, is that sevier enough damage to disable the aircraft?

Well, at the end of the film, it lists the results of the damage, showing that the rear spar, several ribs, and a large chunk of the wing surface area is destroyed.  It then characterizes the damage as "probably lethal" from an aerodynamic and structural perspective and "lethal" from a loss of control perspective.  So, given that the impact of a tater in game blows your wing off, I'd say that's a fairly good representation of what happens in real life.  Are there hypotheticals in real life that might allow the pilot to fly after similar damage?  Perhaps, but for most cases, the plane would be doomed.  And, it seems to me that HTC has to have some sort of standard that doesn't allow for some of those hypothetical situations.  So, you get in the wing with a tater--the wing comes off.  I think that's fair, especially considering the alternative would be to randomize how damage is applied to the aircraft, and none of us really want that.

[bustr]

Stoney,

Thank you.

If this seemed like a fishing expedition, I felt that way in it's implimentation But. The subject around the 30mm and its damage has been sensative in this game. I had never seen this film before so wanted to pass it by for the smell test then offer it up for question and comparison to the current damage model. I'm not a historical film analyst or subject matter expert. I was afraid it was a very good bit and splicing out of context from other films and photoshoping. The last written bit about the damage didn't read like similare things I had seen in other films from the era. More the flavor of CZ web pages I have translated with Google.

[Stoney]

Stoney,

Thank you.

If this seemed like a fishing expedition, I felt that way in it's implimentation But. The subject around the 30mm and its damage has been sensative in this game. I had never seen this film before so wanted to pass it by for the smell test then offer it up for question and comparison to the current damage model. I'm not a historical film analyst or subject matter expert. I was afraid it was a very good bit and splicing out of context from other films and photoshoping. The last written bit about the damage didn't read like similare things I had seen in other films from the era. More the flavor of CZ web pages I have translated with Google.

Well, personally, I've been skeptical about the relative power of cannons versus "slug" weapons in this game since I started playing.  Unfortunately, I don't know enough about ballistics and the weapons, so, after making my initial ignorance public, as documented in a couple threads from 2007, I pushed the "I believe" button.

[bustr]

I suppose the casing around the 85grams of explosive in 30mm is not much thicker than the canister around the 115grams of explosive of the german stick granade at the time. I would suspect since the early war version of the stick granade relyed on concusion opposed to sharpnel, then halving the effect on the surface of an aircraft structure is expected. Too bad we don't have links to accepted ordinance testing reports from WW2 along with films of testing by ordinance groups to review. This spitfire wing test is the first film of real time testing of the 30mm I've ever seen.

In the post I started about Tony Martin there is a link to the discussion he took part in. In that thread is a photo of the damage a 30mm did to the tail gun of a B17. The gun position was totaly destroyed by a round. The starbord elevator is damaged from a second round. Intersting is that the elevator span on the B17 is about the spitfires wing span but not as damaged as the spitfires wing. But then the B17 was built to with stand damage because it was expected to be repetedly attacked during business hours. You can also see blast preassure damage forward into the back of the starbord wing that has caused upward deformation of the wing structure and skin on one of the strongest wing structures in WW2. 85 grams of HE must put out some blast preassure wave.

[Charge]

Just for comparison see what a Hisso HE does when it gets to build up some pressure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p8h43TRXwk

-C+

[Guppy35]

Legit film.  I believe it was postwar testing.  It's a Spitfire IIb

[jdbecks]

The page basically says,

Never seen before czech gun footage, capturing the actions and shot down of the following pilots, Otty Smika, Miroslava Liškutína, Stanislava Hlučky, Františka Louckého, Otmara Kučery in September 1943, before you could only read about it, but now you can see it with your own eyes but the film quality is really bad. If anyone has any more videos or information he welcomes them. he might have some more videos.

Thats basically what it says, not word for word.

[gyrene81]

I suppose the casing around the 85grams of explosive in 30mm is not much thicker than the canister around the 115grams of explosive of the german stick granade at the time. I would suspect since the early war version of the stick granade relyed on concusion opposed to sharpnel, then halving the effect on the surface of an aircraft structure is expected. Too bad we don't have links to accepted ordinance testing reports from WW2 along with films of testing by ordinance groups to review. This spitfire wing test is the first film of real time testing of the 30mm I've ever seen.

Actually the 30mm Mk108 rounds had a thicker projectile shell than the hand grenades. The hand grenade was basically a small steel can filled with explosive, to get more shrapnel effect there was an optional thin steel sleeve that could be placed over the head of the grenade.





You can see the difference in the amount of shrapnel material between the two.