Is This Video Real or Doctored?

[morfiend]

 This would be a good place to start.

  http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/


  but I just use a search for weapons testing and see where it leads me.

 Tony Williams used to contribute to the forum and his site covers just about any weapon/gun thats been used.

 He has a great article on what would be the ultimate WW2 aircraft weapon,his conclussions or quite interesting.

   

[Die Hard]

See Rule #6

[OOZ662]

See Rule #6

[BulletVI]

Alto if i use a bit of brain power. A lot of these pictures are of damage that happened on the ground with the aircraft standing still. Now if you think about it the damage to the aircraft in the air can be reduced due to a certain factors.

1) both air craft are moving at high speed so the cannon and bullet rounds ( projectile's ) have the force of oncoming wind and air resistance to fight. I.E the wake of air left behind by the aircraft in front, the gforce's of the aircraft that is firing the rounds. these are some of the force's that the projectile rounds have to deal with to get to the target. Thus they may affect the speed of the oncoming round by a small fraction.

2) The fact that the lead aircraft that you will be firing at wont be stationary it's moving trying to keep you from hitting it. thus you may only get around 20% of the burst of fire from your gun's impacting on the target.

3) If the target is on the ground and stationary we all know that a 3 second burst from a 30mm or a 20mm cannon will cause the damage that we see in these pictures. As logically around 85% of a 3 second burst will impact on target. Thus the damage is more concentrated to one spot.

4) The film in the first post also could be the invention of the explosive cannon round. Its really a small version of a high explosive shell used by tank's and artillery gun's. And was invented by the British and American's for armament to our ground attack aircraft ( after D-Day ) i.e the Typhoon , Tempest and to be developed for the P-47 as a backup for once the pilot had used all his rocket's for tank busting attacking an airfield he can still do some pretty good damage.

Now i know there is probally some people out there in the forum's who will disagree with me but hey before you say anything let's research it more because if high explosive cannon shell's where part of WW2 armament then we may be-able to Get them implemented in the game as another choice of weapon

Thanks BulletVI

[Die Hard]

See Rule #6

[morfiend]

 Did you look at the pic of the Blenheim or spit? those were the result of 1 30mm round from a Mk108 that was placed in the fuselage then electrically ignited.

 So while you may be correct that the effects may be different if fired from an actual weapon,the results of these "tests" are pretty obvious.

 BTW we already have these type of weapons and effects ingame,just try a K4 or 110G with the 30mm and see for ourself.

  

[Die Hard]

1) both air craft are moving at high speed so the cannon and bullet rounds ( projectile's ) have the force of oncoming wind and air resistance to fight. I.E the wake of air left behind by the aircraft in front, the gforce's of the aircraft that is firing the rounds. these are some of the force's that the projectile rounds have to deal with to get to the target. Thus they may affect the speed of the oncoming round by a small fraction.

Velocity of the shell has little effect on the destructive power of a HE shell.

2) The fact that the lead aircraft that you will be firing at wont be stationary it's moving trying to keep you from hitting it. thus you may only get around 20% of the burst of fire from your gun's impacting on the target.

3) If the target is on the ground and stationary we all know that a 3 second burst from a 30mm or a 20mm cannon will cause the damage that we see in these pictures. As logically around 85% of a 3 second burst will impact on target. Thus the damage is more concentrated to one spot.

In the original poster’s film the MK 108 30mm cannon fires a single round. A single round did that damage, not a burst.

4) The film in the first post also could be the invention of the explosive cannon round. Its really a small version of a high explosive shell used by tank's and artillery gun's. And was invented by the British and American's for armament to our ground attack aircraft ( after D-Day ) i.e the Typhoon , Tempest and to be developed for the P-47 as a backup for once the pilot had used all his rocket's for tank busting attacking an airfield he can still do some pretty good damage.

The weapon is a MK 108 30mm cannon used by the Germans in WWII. It was part of the armament of many Luftwaffe aircraft in 1944-45, including the Bf 109, Bf 110, Fw 190, Me 262, Me 163, Me 410, and several others.

Now i know there is probally some people out there in the forum's who will disagree with me but hey before you say anything let's research it more because if high explosive cannon shell's where part of WW2 armament then we may be-able to Get them implemented in the game as another choice of weapon

No research necessary; explosive shells are modeled for all cannon armed planes in the game except the tank-killers which used AP.

[BulletVI]

Did you look at the pic of the Blenheim or spit? those were the result of 1 30mm round from a Mk108 that was placed in the fuselage then electrically ignited.

 So while you may be correct that the effects may be different if fired from an actual weapon,the results of these "tests" are pretty obvious.

 BTW we already have these type of weapons and effects in game,just try a K4 or 110G with the 30mm and see for ourself.

  

Oh yes i know we already have the best weapon damage effect's that computer's can give today. But if you read closely i was saying and i should have went into a bit more detail. These where probably tests to see what the damage from an exploding 30mm or 20mm round can do to effect more damage on ground targets i.e static aircraft. As with most cases if you strafe a static aircraft the only way of purely destroying it is to aim for the fuel tank's. now that can be quite hard to do as is not moving and your moving at around 350mph. So they probably picture's of tests to see if an exploding cannon shell Doe's more damage to static target's. And it doe's.

And in North Africa it was proved very effective with the Hurricane IIB with the 2 30mm cannons under the wing. They fired an early form of explosive cannon shells that would detonate on impact. Later Typhoons And other ground attack Aircraft where equip ed with Explosive cannon shell's that where time delayed by means of a double tip on the cannon round simple an effective. Once the cannon round pierced the skin of an aircraft the first layer would crumble thus exploding the actual cannon shell so when that would hit the other side or a strut on the frame Boom Big explosion.

The Germans in some case's after D-Day actually thought they were being shelled as well as attacked from the air.

[BulletVI]

Velocity of the shell has little effect on the destructive power of a HE shell.



In the original poster’s film the MK 108 30mm cannon fires a single round. A single round did that damage, not a burst.



The weapon is a MK 108 30mm cannon used by the Germans in WWII. It was part of the armament of many Luftwaffe aircraft in 1944-45, including the Bf 109, Bf 110, Fw 190, Me 262, Me 163, Me 410, and several others.



No research necessary; explosive shells are modeled for all cannon armed planes in the game except the tank-killers which used AP.

OK     

[morfiend]

OK     

 Everything Die Hard said was true,however the same cant be said for you.The Hurricane IIB never was equipped with 30mm cannon,maybe 40mm but never 30mm.

   

[BulletVI]

 Everything Die Hard said was true,however the same cant be said for you.The Hurricane IIB never was equipped with 30mm cannon,maybe 40mm but never 30mm.

   

OK so the Hurricane was a guess on the cannon size.

But also in relation to the picture's these could also be tests of Germany's 30mm cannon from captured or downed Me 109's that where forced down over the UK. As a test bead to design much more destructive cannons than Germany. Remember we would have had an abundance of German Me 109 F's and earlier model's even probally later model's of the Me 109. From a few daylight sneak raid's and so forth.

And the germans in their own rights's where probally testing their weapon's on captured or downed aircraft from the UK    .

[morfiend]

 Yes both sides did extensive tests to see weapon effectiveness.

 IIRC the germans concluded 3 to 5 hits from a 30mm cannon would down a 4 engine heavy,whereas it took 20 or more 20mm to do the same.

 The US concluded that the hisp.20mm was equal to roughly 3 50cals so a typhoon would have twice the firepower of a P51.

 Most the pix shown were done after hostilities ceased and there was an abundance of weapons to test.

   

[bustr]

General reading at the Army Office of Medical History Wound Ballistics report. A true horror show.

http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/woundblstcs/default.htm

Interesting is the german MG151/20 He round has aprox 18grams of HE opposed to the Mk108 30mm round's aprox 72- 85grams of HE. From what I can find the 20mm took 4-5 rounds to kill a single engine fighter while I cannot find any statement to the fact; I suspect one round of 30mm HE would sufice on most fighters. As for bombers here is a line from a Tony Williams discussion:

Tests carried out at Rechlin (where most of the Luftwaffe aircraft and weapons tests were done) showed that with a "M-Shell" with 85 grains of explosive, five hits COULD destroy a B-17 or B-24 bomber.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
General 30mm information:

The resulting low muzzle velocity was the MK 108's main shortcoming, with the result that its projectile trajectory was seriously affected by bullet drop after a comparatively short range—41 m (135 ft) of drop in the first 1,000 m (3,300 ft) of range. The long time of flight and curved trajectory strongly reduced the usefulness of the MK 108 against maneuvering targets like fighters; it was designed for use against bombers. Even against these, attacks had to be pressed home to close range, which was particularly challenging for fast fighters like the Me 262, which risked colliding with the target if their approach speed was too high.

Personal Note:

Guess collisions to get gun solutions were a real problem in WW2 and should be expected as a reality in the Aces High simulator environment.

Even against these, attacks had to be pressed home to close range, which was particularly challenging for fast fighters like the Me 262, which risked colliding with the target if their approach speed was too high.

 

[BulletVI]

Yes both sides did extensive tests to see weapon effectiveness.

 IIRC the germans concluded 3 to 5 hits from a 30mm cannon would down a 4 engine heavy,whereas it took 20 or more 20mm to do the same.

 The US concluded that the hisp.20mm was equal to roughly 3 50cals so a typhoon would have twice the firepower of a P51.

 Most the pix shown were done after hostilities ceased and there was an abundance of weapons to test.

  

Ah yes i read about that but we also have to remember that due to all the testing that was achieved and from it the development of the armor piercing explosive cannon shell led to the development of the vicker's cannon and the need for less ammo to store on today's fighter's.
That's why the like's of the Su27 and MiG 29 only carry inefect of 150 rounds its due to the destructive power of each cannon shell. The same was found to be with western aircraft as-well they carry only 300 -900 cannon rounds depending on type of aircraft. Aircraft with the cannon version of the mini gun i have no idea about ???
   

[sandwich]

What?