Author Topic: Stable Social Dynamics and "The Rule of 150".  (Read 1939 times)

Offline bustr

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Stable Social Dynamics and "The Rule of 150".
« on: July 12, 2010, 04:42:43 PM »
Have any of you noticed in all of this communities conversations about poor game play\conduct and large groups, that a single concept is identified repeatedly? This point is always reached then lamented as the good old days, just before the conversation jumps off into the morass of howto manipulate the game to control human nature. 

Dunbar's number is a theoretical cognitive limit to the number of people with whom one can maintain stable social relationships.

The Rule of 150.

These are relationships in which an individual knows who each person is, and how each person relates to every other person. Proponents assert that numbers larger than this generally require more restrictive rules, laws, and enforced norms to maintain a stable, cohesive group. No precise value has been proposed for Dunbar's number, but a commonly cited approximation is 150.

Small groups of players will all know each other, feel like a common community and compete as freindly rivals for each others respect. Once you pass Dunbar's number, then new groups form with no motivation to respectfully interact with the community as a whole. Them versus Us becomes the interactive norm. The proliferation of Squads and the rise of The Super Squads. The vile language and attempts to dehumanise each other over ch200. The increased introduction of Moderator structures and privlege bans. Groups using loopholes in the game to disrupt normal game flow. The combination of this will be overwhelming to new players and cause them to view the game not as a community of like minded enthusiists to becomes freinds with. But, more likely as a chaotic realm in which to seek as much imediate reward as possible by any means before being towered. Or, to leave somewhere in the first two weeks.

FSO is one bright light in this because of the top down command structure and a large scale common goal. It works because of it's resemblence to the finals in the World Soccer Cup. In the real world the militairy is able to control large groups by using combined small group associations with a top down strict command structure.

1.) The strife will escalate as an arena population exceeds 150.
2.) Squads will form and want to compete against other groups and squads by the nature of close knit tribal communities and the need to BELONG.
3.) Them versus Us is seductive because you no longer see your opponents as human as yourself, which is a gateway to poor conduct.
4.) Bad conduct, vile language, and frequent attempts to game the game will be the norm past Dunbar's number.
5.) Groups like squads are naturaly self moderating under Dunbars number. A Super Group of groups in an arena will not moderate ITSelf and requires outside Moderation for good conduct.
6.) FSO works brilliently because it is about two large communities competeing against each other for a common goal inside of a contextual framework and time limit.   

Left to our own devices, as Dunbar's number is exceeded, we eventualy become the worst of ourselves without ever more Draconian Moderation. How do we apply the success of FSO's ability to have two large groups interact and be so well behaved together? Well defined goals and objectives? Greater rewards for greater efforts? Being ejected for the night instead of loosing VOX and text privleges? HiTech introducing new updates and toys only passifys us for as SHORT as the novelty lasts. Bad game play is due to bad conduct.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline RufusLeaking

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Re: Stable Social Dynamics and "The Rule of 150".
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2010, 05:48:59 PM »
3.) Them versus Us is seductive because you no longer see your opponents as human as yourself, which is a gateway to poor conduct.
Raising oneself up by putting someone else down is a delusion.  Dehumanizing people is all the rage.  "Baby seals," "ilks," "your kind," etc., are all over the forums.

We all could do better to just enjoy the game and forget the insults.

I concede that there is also a need for people to toughen up with regards to the harsh give and take, myself included in this group.
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Stable Social Dynamics and "The Rule of 150".
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2010, 06:02:36 PM »
interesting principle, I always understood it to be 200 whether its a company (max effieciency) or a community (social cohesion.)

supports my idea that 450-600 is about the ideal for a single 3-country arena.

then again "The rule of 200" would have a different meaning here in AH :D
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What most of us want to do is simply shoot stuff and look good doing it - Chilli

Offline falcon23

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Re: Stable Social Dynamics and "The Rule of 150".
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2010, 06:13:11 PM »
4.) Bad conduct, vile language, and frequent attempts to game the game will be the norm past Dunbar's number.
5.) Groups like squads are naturaly self moderating under Dunbars number. A Super Group of groups in an arena will not moderate ITSelf and requires outside Moderation for good conduct.


 I see #4 come from small groups/squads..and even SINGLE people with NO squad affiliation

 I see#5 some "As I think you are implying here,BIG squads" moderate themselves very well.


 I see each respective side: rook,knight,bish AS ONE big SQUAD working together..

 Are you saying that a cap of 150 in any arena will be the BEST for this game?

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Stable Social Dynamics and "The Rule of 150".
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2010, 06:17:50 PM »
surely that means 150 per country - my communication with the other 2 sides is limited to bullets and the odd <S>
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What most of us want to do is simply shoot stuff and look good doing it - Chilli

Offline bustr

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Re: Stable Social Dynamics and "The Rule of 150".
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2010, 06:25:27 PM »
The company that created Gortex has a company policy that no business unit will be any larger than 120 persons. When a unit grows past 120 a new unit is formed. As units get larger they divide into small internal political cliques who work at odds to the other cliques reducing the units ability to be effective and the companies bottom line. You have higher rates of sick leave, HR interventions and issues related to worker dissatisfaction. Management is less efective, builds empires, interferes with processes, scores low in employee satisfaction surveys and cuts into the companies bottom line.

Dunbars number is the observation that human beings are hardwired to identify with smaller groups 148-150 being about the max. Once you quit identifying with a group the tendancy is to feel displaced, anxious, angry or depressed. Then you either form your own group\clique inside of the company, seek out an empire builder to join, act out, under perform, transfer to another unit, quit or get fired. In the mean time you loose and the company looses.

This can be controlled with super large groups functioning together. But it takes a strong centralised authority with every one conditioned to play their part along with real and emediate consiquences for noncompliance. The militairy or large corporations can do this. It does not work in the MA very well letting us all run around trusting us to be on our Honor.

bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline WMLute

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Re: Stable Social Dynamics and "The Rule of 150".
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2010, 06:45:59 PM »
I remember something similar from an anthropology class a loooong time ago.

Interesting stuff and I somewhat think it holds true for AcesHigh.

I would take a guess that 250 ish is "optimal" for an arena in this game.
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
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Absurdum est ut alios regat, qui seipsum regere nescit

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Stable Social Dynamics and "The Rule of 150".
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2010, 06:53:15 PM »
yeah I got 200 from some microeconomics class. point is that should apply to each country, not each arena. the countries are competing with each other, cooperating within each side.
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What most of us want to do is simply shoot stuff and look good doing it - Chilli

Offline bustr

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Re: Stable Social Dynamics and "The Rule of 150".
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2010, 07:11:01 PM »
The Super Group of Groups is the total population of the arena. Groups like a squad internaly will moderate themselves by their nature up to a different tipping point for each squad. As the arena population exceedes Dunbars number, the frequency of discord increases. And then more suceptable individuals and groups across countries feed into the discord because we are human.  A Super Group of 300 seems to be HiTech's tollerance for discord.

I used to beleive 150 per country would meet the definition of Dunbars number in the MA. Channel 200 makes the total arena population Dunbars number. Eliminate the cross country channels, cross country PM and perhaps 150 per country will be the number. So long as every disgruntled, greifing prone and generaly needing to whine on ch200 players won't give up cross country communication. As the Super Group passes 150, the discord will grow in proportion.

A compromise could be that ch200, cross country 200's comunication and cross country PM can only take place and be seen while in the tower other than .S <Player ID>.   
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Stable Social Dynamics and "The Rule of 150".
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2010, 07:35:27 PM »
ok if goretex realise they have a competitor do they reduce the size of their business units to 60? another competitor enters the market, do they reduce their business unit to 40? etc...

a village of 150 discovers another village an hours walk away. does social cohesion suddenly break down simply because a few of the villagers make the hours trek to the next village once a week to trade?

I tune 200 maybe 10mins per tour, some people always have it tuned, some never. the availability of ch200 and pms does not make the total arena population dunbars group size. 150-200 per country allows a sense of community and most importantly allows useful and productive communication and interaction (this is the key point of dunbars hypothesis). more than that and it breaks down.

the forum provides a way for players who never interact in the arenas to interact (people fly at different times, most like the LWMA, some prefer the other MAs, the DA, scenarios, snapshot etc.) If you extend the group beyond those who fly and fight together, by extension we should limit the total number of AH players to 150...
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What most of us want to do is simply shoot stuff and look good doing it - Chilli

Offline falcon23

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Re: Stable Social Dynamics and "The Rule of 150".
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2010, 07:37:51 PM »
yea.I dont think channel 200 is in any way a proper representation of what goes on in the individual sides,or the whole arena for that matter.

Offline bustr

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Re: Stable Social Dynamics and "The Rule of 150".
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2010, 07:47:57 PM »
Because we need to communicate as part of being human and it just feels good to send some kind of a message to an advisary. Use the outlined comprimise from my last post then flesh out the .S command to some small number of concepts like we use emoticons in these posts.  .:furious  .. :huh   ..:)   ..:devil   ..:x...and so on to the traditional .S<player ID>..... :salute

you enter           Shows as white text

.S <ID> r           for [rats or dernit] <ID>
.S <ID> m          for [missed me] <ID>
.S <ID> i           for [I'll be back] <ID>
.S <ID> e          for [EEEEEk] <ID>
.S <ID> ts         for [talk to me in tower soon] <ID>
.S <ID> ys        for [yes will talk soon] <ID>
.S <ID> d         for [you want to DA?] <ID>
.S <ID> th        for [thank you but no] <ID>
.S <ID> y          for [yes lets DA] <ID>

Something where HiTech controls the cross country saluting, insulting, and bantor while we are the most vulnerable to getting pissed off during combat. Maybe leave the AvA, WW1 and DA with ch200 cross countries.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline falcon23

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Re: Stable Social Dynamics and "The Rule of 150".
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2010, 07:50:22 PM »
PLEASE!!!! no more . commands...

 And there is some really good chat that goes on in 200 as well..dont throw the baby out with the bathwater.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 07:51:58 PM by falcon23 »

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Stable Social Dynamics and "The Rule of 150".
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2010, 07:58:55 PM »
got to say on the occassions I do more than a .s and type gf etc on ch200, only get a response 10% of the time. suggests to me that only 10% of players tune it...
71 (Eagle) Squadron

What most of us want to do is simply shoot stuff and look good doing it - Chilli

Offline Bear76

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Re: Stable Social Dynamics and "The Rule of 150".
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2010, 08:01:34 PM »
got to say on the occassions I do more than a .s and type gf etc on ch200, only get a response 10% of the time. suggests to me that only 10% of players tune it...

I'd say your shy about 80%