Author Topic: Disturbing trend  (Read 3568 times)

Offline dedalos

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Re: Disturbing trend
« Reply #105 on: August 25, 2010, 04:31:16 PM »

why do you think the rv8 is modeled in the game? it's hitech's real world plane.

Well, my dog has not flown one of those either  :D  In any case, all it would prove is that the rv8 is or is not modeled right.  I am willing to bet that the people that have flown rv8s will end up arguing with one another about it  ;)
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Wiley

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Re: Disturbing trend
« Reply #106 on: August 25, 2010, 04:39:02 PM »
Well, it's a plane Hitech has personal experience with flying in the real world.  It stands to reason they used the same process to model the RV8 as they used to model the war planes.  If the RV8 is right, it's fairly reasonable to assume that the engine is capable of making the war planes work reasonably close, right?

But yes, people with RV8 experience probably would quibble with its abilities in game.

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Offline kvuo75

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Re: Disturbing trend
« Reply #107 on: August 25, 2010, 05:14:33 PM »
Well, my dog has not flown one of those either  :D  In any case, all it would prove is that the rv8 is or is not modeled right.  I am willing to bet that the people that have flown rv8s will end up arguing with one another about it  ;)

perhaps, but I think it would help him prove that his math is correct with the flight model.

IIRC hitech also has experience in P51's also, so he's got that to go off of as well as his rv8 experience.
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Offline HatTrick

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Re: Disturbing trend
« Reply #108 on: August 25, 2010, 06:08:15 PM »
I have no clue if it is right or wrong.  I never flew these plains in real life.

Well you had no problem implying that they had been made to turn better to make the game easier.  I simply disagree with the reasoning behind that change, if such a change was indeed made (I obviously wasn't playing AH at the time you referenced.)

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The reality is that no one can claim that the models are right or wrong (ok, maybe 99% of the people).  Sure the numbers used may be accurate but the actual modeling (code) it self, how would I know?  So now the question is, how do you know?

I can't tell for sure.  I can only compare the way the plane flies in game to what I've read about the aircraft from people that flew them and flew against them including Eric Brown who flew scores of WW2 aircraft from all different nations.  It is my understanding from my own reading on the subject that the Bf109 was quite maneuverable up until the later models of the G series (G-10 and later variants) where so much weight was added to the airframe that the wingloading increased to a point that the maneuverability suffered as a result.  While even the early 109s could not best their Spitfire contemporaries in terms of turning radius, it was quite possible for a good pilot to turn inside of a Spitfire long enough to achieve a victory.  For proof of that, I point to Hans Joachim Marseille:

Marseille said that in such conditions, there's a lower chance and too little time for the usual chase attack method, and preferred to use high angle deflection firing from short range while making a sharp turn. In doing so, he never used his gun sight and instead fired a very short burst at the passing target in the split second when its leading edge, its propeller, disappeared from his eyes behind his aircraft's nose.

As for the Corsair, it had something like an 11:1 kill ratio in air combat in WW2.  That speaks for itself but it is not difficult to find comments regarding the Corsair such as this:

How can the Corsair be evaluated? Its standing as a major combat aircraft of World War II can not be denied. But its merits, or lack thereof, have always been controversial. The Corsair was fast, sturdy, powerful, well-armed, and versatile. Its handling qualities were widely criticized, but an experience pilot who knew the strong points of the aircraft could outmaneuver fighters that were praised for their handling and maneuverability.

That comment there pretty much jibes with what I see in this game.  Someone that knows what they are doing with a Corsair can indeed outmaneuver some of the supposedly more maneuverable fighters but that certainly isn't true from everyone.  The person at the controls is way more important than what virtual aircraft they happen to be flying. 

My point is that if the Corsair and 109s used to be unmaneuverable bricks and if they were changed at some point so they weren't, it wasn't to make the game easier.  It was more likely done to make them perform more realistically because in reality they were not unmaneuverable bricks.  Indeed, I don't have first hand experience to support that assertion but as I said, there exists plenty of evidence to support my statement.

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Ho can you tell if the always - as we are told by the experts here - perfect models are correct or if they have been improved?  The only thing I can tell is that they change every so often and some things went from hard to easier.  Does that make them more accurate? 

Well you are apparently an exceptional virtual pilot and that has been confirmed by other parties here.  Just because you can get in an inferior aircraft and outperform someone flying a better aircraft doesn't mean that the flight model has been dumbed down to be easier.  It means you're good.  I know personally when I am flying a Spit IX, I don't fear a turning engagement with a 109G-6 and definitely don't with the G-14 or K-4.  I find that the 109s up to the G-2 are pretty good dogfighters.  The G-6 is kind of iffy and the G-14 and K-4 are strictly B&Z fighters in the hands of all but the best sticks.

With the Corsair, it all depends on how the fight goes and if they are able to get their flaps down.  Without flaps, they can't turn with a Spit IX, they just can't.  Again, it comes down to the pilot.  A good Corsair pilot will give you a tough fight in a Spit IX, a poor one will be quickly shot down. 

 



Offline redman555

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Re: Disturbing trend
« Reply #109 on: August 26, 2010, 12:05:29 AM »
Like I have posted multiple times, personally I had more fun on the game years ago, but it just slowly starting dieing to me.  I tried to come back for a month, but after a few days the same thing happened as it did before just way faster, I got bored....Personally in my opinion I was not to happy with the arena caps, as well as the maps being used.  IT was like the same maps over, and over, and over again.  As well as the enormous maps that just didnt work at times of the days when only 100 people were on.  I had SO MUCH more fun back 7-8 years ago, when there was one arena, awesome maps, and less BnZers.  Just as an example, Fighter Town was one of the funnest maps EVER placed on AH, just giant furballs and fun for hours.

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Offline dedalos

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Re: Disturbing trend
« Reply #110 on: August 26, 2010, 08:30:22 AM »
Well you had no problem implying that they had been made to turn better to make the game easier.  I simply disagree with the reasoning behind that change, if such a change was indeed made (I obviously wasn't playing AH at the time you referenced.)

So were not here when it allegedly happened, and yet you disagree with the reasoning?  Well, what ever the reason was, the results are the same right? 

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Well you are apparently an exceptional virtual pilot and that has been confirmed by other parties here.  Just because you can get in an inferior aircraft and outperform someone flying a better aircraft doesn't mean that the flight model has been dumbed down to be easier.  It means you're good. 


Nop, no where near exceptional, and that is my point.  There is no way, I should be able to pull up, hang on my prop, roll over while the bad guy flies under me, pull up behind him on his way up, fire, hit him, rinse and repeat in a p40 with full flaps at 1K over the tree lines.  It has nothing to do with being a good or a bad pilot.  The plane can either pull its nose up or can't.  Nothing to do with the guy puling on the stick.  He only matters on the timing and the angles.  I used the P40 as an example because of the big dif vs a spit16.

I don;t know how to better explain it.  I told people in the past in the DA that I fly everything (excluding 190s) the same way I fly a spitV.  Should that be possible?

And to avoid any confusion, the models have changed several times.  Maybe the latest version is the most accurate one, maybe not.  But if you do a search on the BBS will find the old threads complaining about the 109 models and the F4U models, and then you will see that those threads disappear.  It will give you an idea of when the - in my opinion - big change happened.  And yes, in my opinion, the game/planes became easier to fly.  As I said before, there was no way I could win vs someone like TC in an F4U until those changes.  I don;t think I learned over night.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline CAP1

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Re: Disturbing trend
« Reply #111 on: August 26, 2010, 08:34:11 AM »
So were not here when it allegedly happened, and yet you disagree with the reasoning?  Well, what ever the reason was, the results are the same right? 

Nop, no where near exceptional, and that is my point.  There is no way, I should be able to pull up, hang on my prop, roll over while the bad guy flies under me, pull up behind him on his way up, fire, hit him, rinse and repeat in a p40 with full flaps at 1K over the tree lines.  It has nothing to do with being a good or a bad pilot.  The plane can either pull its nose up or can't.  Nothing to do with the guy puling on the stick.  He only matters on the timing and the angles.  I used the P40 as an example because of the big dif vs a spit16.

I don;t know how to better explain it.  I told people in the past in the DA that I fly everything (excluding 190s) the same way I fly a spitV.  Should that be possible?

And to avoid any confusion, the models have changed several times.  Maybe the latest version is the most accurate one, maybe not.  But if you do a search on the BBS will find the old threads complaining about the 109 models and the F4U models, and then you will see that those threads disappear.  It will give you an idea of when the - in my opinion - big change happened.  And yes, in my opinion, the game/planes became easier to fly.  As I said before, there was no way I could win vs someone like TC in an F4U until those changes.  I don;t think I learned over night.

not to be an ass......but i'd like to see film of that. i always end up in those trees trying anything near like what you described.....
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Disturbing trend
« Reply #112 on: August 26, 2010, 09:00:53 AM »
I preferred the RV8 setup for the Con. :D
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Offline Yeager

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Re: Disturbing trend
« Reply #113 on: August 26, 2010, 09:01:01 AM »
Like I have posted multiple times, personally I had more fun on the game years ago
srry your not having as much fun anymore.  For me, I dont care what map.  I dont care arena caps, or this whine or that whine........I just enjoy killing people.  well,  ......you know what I mean.
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Offline FiLtH

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Re: Disturbing trend
« Reply #114 on: August 26, 2010, 09:06:28 AM »
    I'm with you Ded, I fly the same way in everything too. Some planes do better than others using them the way I fly, but some do seem to not want to do what I want.  As far as the planes suddenly getting easier to fly, I dont know. I think some of the planes that are created for us, like the spit16, are made because they were real easy to fly, but thats just a guess.

   All in all I'd rather have planes easier to fly so more people can give a good fight. If they were real hard and few could fly them well, the playing field would really suck.

  

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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Disturbing trend
« Reply #115 on: August 26, 2010, 09:16:46 AM »
Most do not know this but Dedalos dresses like Robin Hood when he flies.
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Offline dedalos

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Re: Disturbing trend
« Reply #116 on: August 26, 2010, 09:42:48 AM »
Most do not know this but Dedalos dresses like Robin Hood when he flies.

Pfffft, you are jealous because I look hot in those green tights!  :O
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline dedalos

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Re: Disturbing trend
« Reply #117 on: August 26, 2010, 09:43:44 AM »
not to be an ass......but i'd like to see film of that. i always end up in those trees trying anything near like what you described.....

Find the ones from our fights in the MW a while back  :D
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Yeager

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Re: Disturbing trend
« Reply #118 on: August 26, 2010, 09:48:24 AM »
Pfffft, you are jealous because I look hot in those green tights!  :O
Thats cool, just be sure to keep you jUnK in the tRuNk  :neener:
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Offline dedalos

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Re: Disturbing trend
« Reply #119 on: August 26, 2010, 09:57:30 AM »
Thats cool, just be sure to keep you jUnK in the tRuNk  :neener:

 :bolt:
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.