Radar + Strategy

[oTRALFZo]

shhhh

As I was told in another thread, you're expecting common sense. If you can't see the numbers it's bad, if you can see the numbers increase.. time for new pants.

Numbers are numbers. If you can mount superior forces, use em to win even if your tactics can't survive without em (IE USSR during WWII with thier fall back tactic that gave ground any time the blitz broke the lines, yet allowed them to merged with the line behind, eventually making the line too thick to pierce. Or Stalin's theory once on the offense of just throwing people at the Germans) Oh and the US's theory was, besides having decent men, was to out produce, or.. wait for it... HORDE WITH EQUIPMENT! Bad WWII for proving hordes are good, bad bad.

Eisenhower was quoted as saying when they were planning the massive D-Day invasion "OK guys..whoever dies first, up a goon from Calais"

[bustr]

No one is going to persuade HTC that changing the radar and how it functions in the MA has put an end to "strategics" in this game.

That is a false argument since the very act of planning to go from point A to point B alone or enmass to accomplish a goal is the definition of "strategy". If the current implementation of radar is now perceived as unfair or ruinous of a previous popular style of "stratagems", then more so to the point hasen't HTC simply raised the bar to promote the evolution of new stratagems.

It's sadly amusing how the word strategy is not really understood while being used as a scape goat to cover admission to a personal unwillingness to accept change and adapt new stratagem.

Strategy - A plan of action intended to accomplish a specific goal.<------ Going to the bathroom is a "strategy".
Strategics - The activity of using strategy.<------ This is how you physicaly accomplish going to the bathroom.
Strategem - A deceptive tactic designed to gain the upper hand. Typically, involves underhanded dealings and obfuscation.<-----Strategy in Aces High is dead because radar has been changed Crowd.

Gonna Need a Bigger Sign for these fellers.<-----Comedic satire to illustrate a point.

[Muzzy]

Besides, a horde is not an automatic base take by any means.  I've got the bullet holes in my virtual mossie to prove it.

[falcon23]

You start with the erroneous assumption that NOEs were only run by hordes.  Hordes will horde whether you see them coming or not.  They aren't really affected by all the changes.  In fact, my opinion is that he hordes are actually more intimidating precisely because you CAN see them coming, and who wants to be the lone upper against the incoming 30 cons?  Some of us still do, and we get slaughtered handily because there seem to be fewer of us than before, or perhaps the hordes are larger -- the effect is the same.

Where the "strategy" impact has been felt most is on the small squads.  If we have 4-6 players and want to capture a base, we are simply too small a force to take a base head on.  4 cons inbound on radar (even on old dar settings), and by the time you reach base there are 4-6 uppers.  This means you are instantly engaged, there is virtually no chance to hit the town unless you are flying buff formations at alt (which is not everyone's cup of tea).  So, instead we would run our 4 attack aircraft and one goon NOE, and do as much damage to the town as possible before the first defense arrived.  If the defenders trickled in one and two at a time, we had a chance to protect the goon (you know, by fighting the opposition) and get the capture.  If 4 upped more or less simultaneously, they usually get the goon (you know, by fighting their way around or through us) and then it is roughly 40 minutes of trying to keep the defenders engaged until someone else can somehow sneak a goon or M-3 in.  (You know, some of us call that a long, sustained fight -- started by an NOE raid -- imagine that.)

Well, NOE isn't very viable with the new radar settings if the terrain is at all varied.  So, if we are in the mood to capture a base, our options are 1) join another base-take attempt in progress (which you would probably call "join a horde"), 2) enlist other people's help through the mission planner (which you would probably call "create a horde"), 3) virtually doom ourselves to failure and the resulting frustration by trying to take a base on our own anyway.  None of these options are particularly satisfying when our original goal was to accomplish something as a team.

Having already experienced all the assorted and varied ways to shoot things down and blow stuff up, and having decided that small team exercises at accomplishing a goal was a good way for us to relax and enjoy ourselves . . . yes, the recent changes have hurt us.  Poo-poo it all you want, it's a fact.  No one's quit over it, and my hope is no one does, but several of us are certainly enjoying the game a lot less than before.

   Good post..


 I am still trying to understand WHY,people who holler about bases being taken by any means,and who for the most part seem anti base-taking,dont just go fly where the fights and furballs are going on..

 The excuse "they cant be found",and all the blather that goes along with that, is seriously old and a straw-man argument..
 
 I think the guys who happen to up at a base where a mission is hitting,and keep it at bay,i.e. keep base from being taken,did a fine job..What more do you guys want??You want me to spend 4 hours and keep trying to take a base??

 After the first hour,the base is probably uncapturable due to the fact that buildings are now popping and being destroyed  out of sync,and given the new town layouts,not worth the time to make sure everyone of them are down for another 2 hours of fighting.

 SO,I have a few choices,I can spend the next 4 hours furballing,I dont have that kind of time to spend in-game.. which I am assuming you guys want,or we can re-group and go somewhere else.So,I would rather go looking somewhere else..

  One usually knows in about 45 minutes if the base will be captured or not..you either get the upper hand or you dont.And many times, a furball will start there,and of course,sometimes not.SO I would say the average amount of time which gets spent on base taking missions is about 45 min,and I KNOW for a fact that some last much longer.


  Tralfazz,you say a mission comes in,gets defense and leaves,you repeat it constantly.Whats the time frame you are talking about??? 

    How often do any of you guys on knights or rooks who see missions being done on your respective sides,tell people after the base has been captured, that the "HORDE" mission which just took the afore-mentioned base was not good for the game,and it is hurting the game????
 

[Baumer]

While I can never be as eloquent as bustr, I wanted to share these quotes made earlier by Hitech. It seems to me that these two statements clearly explain the reasoning behind the changes, and who asked for them.

A few simple thoughts.

1. Best way to win a war is to hit the enemy where they ain't.

2. Best way to have fun in a combat orientated game is to have combat.

3. Attacking undefended targets is not combat even though it is the best strategy to win.

4. This is a game and not work or war. Expecting some one to be on defense with no idea if a strike is coming is not a legitimate expectation.  Hence, you should defend your field is not a legitimate argument if it requires some one to do a very boring act with no guaranty of combat.

5. Defense now has more warning on a strike and time to organize a  defense, so now we are more likely to have an offense and defense playing against each other instead of 2 offenses playing by themselves.

Hence these changes have nothing to do with fur-ball vs tool shedding. But simply about putting offense and defense on a more = level.

HiTech

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,291698.0.html

And for the record,

1. No player requested a change.
2. No player that I remember asked for no NOE radar.
3. No player requested longer radar ranges.
4. No player that I remember complained about NOE raids.
5. No player requested shorter ranges.
6. I do not remember any whines about the radar ranges.
7. We did not in any way make this change because of any whining.

HiTech

Now if anyone can come up with a logical argument that refutes the reasoning behind the changes, you might have a chance of getting it changed back to the old settings. However, since the changes I have not seen anything on the boards that's even close to refuting #4, so I suspect the changes are here for a while. 

[Chalenge]

We are no longer taught the true meaning of prose...

No... 'We' lose interest when someone like yourself thinks so much of himself and uses 'fif'y cent' words.

Chill dude its a bbs.  

[grizz441]

Now if anyone can come up with a logical argument that refutes the reasoning behind the changes, you might have a chance of getting it changed back to the old settings. However, since the changes I have not seen anything on the boards that's even close to refuting #4, so I suspect the changes are here for a while.  

Actually, if I wanted to, I could argue against #4.  But the question is, do I want to... hmmm... well I suppose, even though I could care less either way.

An equal offense vs an equal defense is not fair in terms of base capture for a few reasons:

1) Part of the offense is distracted trying to shoot buildings, flying bombers, m3s, checking to see if the town is down, etc.
2) The offense travel time is ten times as long as the defense travel time (Assuming the hangars are up at the base being attacked)
 2a) The defense can continuously take off and defend.  Any kill on a defender is really only worth about 30 seconds of 1 con downtime assuming he takes right back off again.  A kill on an offensive player is worth >5 minutes of downtime.  
3) New town layout has deterred from a systematic efficient approach to taking a town down, further distracting the offense and giving the defense easy kills and buying them more time.

The only advantage the offense has is an altitude advantage, but if the defense is relentless, low ammo and bad luck will be the limiting factors for the offense, forcing a long rtb or a death and a long return.

In a nutshell, if a base is defended, it ain't getting captured without overwhelming horde-esque brute force.  It probably takes at least 3:1/4:1 numerical advantage to capture a base against a half competent defensive force now.  So for all of you (I have been guilty in the past also) saying "capture a base that is well defended", you are all dreaming for all intents and purposes.

[bj229r]

Well....dar rings smaller now (I assume alt is same) noe whordes are thrown a virtual bone

[Lusche]

Well....dar rings smaller now (I assume alt is same) noe whordes are thrown a virtual bone

Altitude is the same, 65ft.

Bish are rolling NOE after NOE, smashing & grabbing Knight field after field. Right now it seems Rooks are following that lead.
Hitech is in the arena for hours now, probably watching it.

I expect the worst...

[bj229r]

Well...I Was in Blue, Nits were in the south, and as we ALL know, watermelon rolls downhill

[bustr]

No... 'We' lose interest when someone like yourself thinks so much of himself and uses 'fif'y cent' words.

Chill dude its a bbs.  

25 cent to be correct. Merriam takes coins and cheques. Furguson takes personal deposits. I've only been speaking the English language but, not prosaicly.

Then again I lose interest with you specificaly who lacks anything but prose and the repatitious reliance on misused and very obviously missunderstood vernacular as dismissives in public discorse. Communicate like you are not back somewhere in K12 or at least with some style to your insults. You appear to not like being challenged on your abillity to abuse the english language while taking a dismissive pass.

It's bad enough most 12th graders today no longer have the ability to understand much of what I've written so far. Don't act like one yourself because you missused the word prose beleiving it means an insultive, dismissive, connotation. The majority of americans aquire that fallatious understanding of the word "prose" before they leave highschool. It's usually because some english teacher was too lazy to present it correctly while using it themselves as a dismissive connotation towards poor work by students. Everyone has some version of old Mrs. Kranston or crabby Mr. Feinklestein as K12 english teachers.

When you can use an observation of prose without butchering it then maybe you can work on an interesting and engaging style to step up your insults. Signature material might be a good start to limber up your imagination and cut the prose. Less reliance on 12th grade mentality and some colorful indirect imagry with subtle entendra. So far YouWe as a collective peer poll aint cutting it. And I don't think you are still in highschool, though the use of a peer poll collective is a very teenage tool......Language and its written construction is very like graphology.<----sorry 30 cent word..oopsies.

[oTRALFZo]

    How often do any of you guys on knights or rooks who see missions being done on your respective sides,tell people after the base has been captured, that the "HORDE" mission which just took the afore-mentioned base was not good for the game,and it is hurting the game????

Falcon,
I am going to try to be as direct and non demeaning as I can with my statement as I possibly can here to be as constructive as I can.

You certainly can not be ignorant to the fact that one big reason that we have the new dar changes was because things were getting way out of hand with the NOE, smash/grab tactic. There comes a point where things start taking over the game, people refuse to log in or just log off after just being sick of it. I can pretty much assume why you wouldn't log into say LWorange if bish were getting ganged and had just a few bases left. You like using strategy, winning the war etc... Its fine and your choice of how to play, but realize the way YOU want to play ( I stress YOU because you are usually the culprit that leads those missions) does in fact affect others and how they play.
You focus on one thing and one thing only, winning the war and resetting the map. At what cost?..you spike ENY because of the fact that a country just doesn't like to be ganged so most of the lone players that like to fight on most balanced terms cant do so now because lets say your taking on average 20 guys( this is mild #s if you logged in last sunday) out of 100 of bish that are logged in and trolling them around the map trying to fly undetected avoiding contact at all cost Meanwhile you smash base X, if it worked or not you move on to another target taking 20-30% of resources with you and leaving 5 or 6 guys behind to deal with the angry mob as a result of your action. PS. Does all this ring a bell from the first squad you ever been in?

Complaints are not just from your local nit or rook bad guys. Aside from your group of guys that like winning the war, There are alot of bish that hate these tactics, even if its the guys in green doing it. Same as Rook or Knights guys.  YES you do affect gameplay and NO its not at a positive cost to a good percentage of players. I really hope you can look at this objectively and reach your own conclusions.
 

[Chalenge]

When you can use an observation of prose without butchering it...

Hey now. Im not insulting you but just pointing out your wasting your time 'flowering up' your text. Just say what you mean to say. At my age I read three flowered words and Im done reading. That kind of thing is for the wife. 

[thndregg]

Altitude is the same, 65ft.

Bish are rolling NOE after NOE, smashing & grabbing Knight field after field. Right now it seems Rooks are following that lead.
Hitech is in the arena for hours now, probably watching it.

I expect the worst...

Well, that figures. I was looking forward to (hopefully when I resolve my internet problem) posting more of an ominous "8th Air Force" mission for the bad guys to hunt for, but if this is what all three sides are gonna do, well.... shucks.

[CAP1]

so last night, in mw, it was mostly the few knights fighting the couple bish. i was the only rook on for a bit....although during my bomber flight a few more rooks logged in.
 i took lancs up, climbed to altitude, and headed into enemy territory. i didn't go more than about 2 sectors deep, as i wasn't in possession of that much time, but all i felt like doing was learning the new bases a little, and dropping radar towers as i've mentioned before.
 whelp........i was about half way through my run, when i saw a spit rolling down the runway(through my bombsight). i didn't pay him much mind, as i figured i'd be back in friendly territory by the time he climbed to me, and even then, my lancs were faster(or so i thought).
 he caught up to me, and it turned out it was a spit8. he rushed his attack, as i think he was trying to get to me at the drop point, so he'd have some shots at me while not in the guns. he didn't make it. i dropped, manned the guns with him 1.5 out. he must've thought that i wasn't in the guns yet, as he went straight at the lead plane.....i smoked him pretty nicely, he dove out of guns range, and flew out front, as if that was safe.....hit him again, he circled, and settled in again my 6 high.....dove, and died.
 
 2 bases later, i see a p47 climbing to me. it seemed to take him longer to catch me in that plane, although i thought they were faster than spits. by the time he was nearly in range, a friendly came to cover me.....the 47 downed him(thanks chevss <<S>> it was much appreciated). during their fight, me being low on fuel now, i made a run for the nearest friendly base. the 47 caught up with me again, and flew through the ack, as now 3 friendlies tried to catch him, to allow me to land.
 he ignored them, planted himself on my six, slightly low, and that was when i discovered i was out of ammo in the tail. no problem......man the top turret, and bank the aircraft for the shot.
 between the 4 of us, we took him apart. (it was the same dude that came for me in the spit8). i ran out fo fuel at about 1 mile from base, at 1500 feet. glided in, landed safely, and exited.

 none of that would've happened with the old radar, as no one would've spent the time looking for a bomber that they couldn't see. since i was almost constantly on the enemy's radar, i got a little bit of fighting. even if he'd have shot down all of my bombers, that would've been fine, because at least i got a fight.