Real life encounters of the FLanker vs Eagle

[SgtPappy]

First off, let me apologize for being so impatient with my browser as to hit that 'POST' button 4 times.

Anyway, hope that Eagl indeed does give his opinion on the matter. So much on t3h interwebz speaks of the Su-27's glorious design destroying F-15's in mock combat.

Although the A2A kill ratios for the F-15/16 are great, they really more principally focus on the BVR capability as the emphasis of USAF fighter design. Whereas the Russians like to dogfight close-in. The emphasis the USAF puts on BVR combat may have been the deciding factor in the 1992 and 2000 "DACTs". No idea what happened in the 2000 battle though as number of respective fighters isn't even mentioned.

[Charge]

U.S. F-15 Eagle Kill Records:

5 Iraqi Mig-29 Fulcrums
7 Iraqi Mirage F-1's
8 Iraqi Mig-23's
2 Iraqi Mig-21's
1 Iraqi ll-76
2 Iraqi SU-25 Frogfoots
3 Iarqi SU-7/17
1 Iraqi MI-24 Hind
2 Iraqi SU-22 Fitters
2 Iraqi MIG-25 Foxbats
4 Serbian Mig-29 Fulcrums
1 Afghan MI-24 Hind (F-15E)
2 U.S. UH-60 Blackhawks (fratricide)

Israeli F-15 kill records:

80-92 Mig-21 Fishbeds
several MIG-25 Foxbats

Royal Saudi Air Force F-15 kill records:

2 Iranian F-4E Phantoms
2 Iraqi F-1 Mirages
1 Iraqi Mig-25

Japanese F-15 kill record:

1 Japanese F-15J (accidental shooting by another Japanese F-15J)

US summary of Su30 vs F15 engagement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKEa-R37PeU

-C+

[eagl]

Some of my old posts on the subject might still be in the forums, if you search back far enough...

For this discussion though, it isn't too tough to summarize.  Equal pilots, 1 vs. 1., in a close-in guns only fight, a flanker has a great chance of getting the first shot from a position of advantage most of the time.  It has both enough slow speed maneuverability and thrust/weight to be able to get and keep an F-15 defensive yet unable to run away.  An F-18 has great low speed maneuverability, but it doesn't have the thrust/weight to keep the temporary advantage it can gain with it's high angle of attack capability.  The flanker has both.

Throw missiles or even a slightly more complicated scenario in there however, and the systems integration of even the "old" F-15Cs may be decisive.  The aim-9X, amraam, and even old aim-7, combined with either the old or new AESA radar, plus the new helmet mounted sight, is utterly lethal because it means that if the eagle driver can *see* the opponent either visually or with the worlds best air to air radar, the opponent is dead dead dead.  The joke about "wish them dead" weapons is pretty darn accurate when you consider the new off-boresight capabilities the eagle has.

Not saying that the flanker and all of the fielded missiles available for it are not good either, but on balance I think the eagle is still easier to fly and employ which means faster detection, targeting, and weapons employment with a high Pk.  And the real world scenario is never a simple as 1 vs. 1 (or even 2 vs. 2), which means the time from detect to shoot gets delayed.  Again however, that is where the F-15 systems are still outstanding.  Still, the more recent SU-27 variants are getting better and better, and an F-15 without support is still just an old fighter with good missiles.  Which is why it is long past time to replace the F-15.  Maybe someday the USAF get an F-15 replacement but that isn't looking very likely for the forseeable future.

And of course the caveat is still don't get into a knife fight with a flanker because he'll turn up his own bunghole and shoot you before you know what happened.  The best bet even if you have to do a visual ID is to sneak up unobserved or deny him a shot (classic out of the sun sort of stuff) until you get close enough to see him, get your ID, then run away bravely while your wingman takes him out with an amraam as soon as you are far enough separated to not get fragged.

[SgtPappy]

That is a perfect summary. Thanks a lot Eagl! 

You essentially confirmed what I had thought about the A2A fight versus the two beasts. Of course the F-22s appearing now are exactly what the US wants when you state "The best bet even if you have to do a visual ID is to sneak up unobserved or deny him a shot (classic out of the sun sort of stuff) until you get close enough to see him, get your ID, then run away bravely".

I suppose to the USAF, dogfighting is truly a dead 'sport', especially since after Vietnam. But I think since they have the tech to do so, why not. It's very efficient in a war/battle.

[eagl]

Regarding F-15 kills, an F-15 scored a direct hit on another F-15 with an AIM-9, many years ago.  The wounded F-15 flew back to base, held aloft by little more than pure anger at the stupid wingman who didn't realize that live missiles had been accidentally left on his plane before they flew a BFM training mission.  Oops.

[Vulcan]

I thought the flankers had off-bore targeting (ie helmet mounted) way before the F-15's? Or is that the -29 I'm think of?

[CAP1]

I'm thinking the Flanker would take the Eagle in the guns too, since everything out there suggests that its maneuverability is superior. But as many of us know, turning alone doesn't always win battles.

I'm sure there is something Eagle pilots can exploit, and as mentioned, pilots matter. Sometime last year, I heard an account of an F-16 pilot who states much of USAF fighter training consists of BVR fights. I assume the Eagle pilots were not as adept at the dogfight as USN or Russian pilots.

But does anyone have any information on the 2000 mock battle between the F-15s and Su-27s? There's nothing I can find on this 'battle'.

HOLY MULTIPLE POST BATMAN!!!!!

[CAP1]

First off, let me apologize for being so impatient with my browser as to hit that 'POST' button 4 times.

Anyway, hope that Eagl indeed does give his opinion on the matter. So much on t3h interwebz speaks of the Su-27's glorious design destroying F-15's in mock combat.

Although the A2A kill ratios for the F-15/16 are great, they really more principally focus on the BVR capability as the emphasis of USAF fighter design. Whereas the Russians like to dogfight close-in. The emphasis the USAF puts on BVR combat may have been the deciding factor in the 1992 and 2000 "DACTs". No idea what happened in the 2000 battle though as number of respective fighters isn't even mentioned.

he F-15’s first kill was made by an Israeli Air Force ace Moshe Melnik in 1979, at the beginning of the border disputes between Israel and Lebanon. During these disputes, between 1979 and 1981 Israeli F-15s downed 13 Syrian MiG-21 "Fishbeds" and two Syrian MiG-25 "Foxbats" (the airplane that the F-15 was designed to beat). During Lebanon War in 1982, the Israeli F-15s shot down 40 Syrian Jet fighters plus 1 Syrian helicopter (23 MiG-21 "Fishbeds" and 17 MiG-23 "Floggers" and one SA.342L Gazelle helicopter) without losing a single F-15!
As of 2008, the F-15 in all air forces has an air-to-air combined kill record of 104 kills to 0 losses in air combat. To date, no air superiority versions of the F-15 (A/B/C/D models) have ever been shot down by enemy forces. Over half of the F-15's kills were made by Israeli Air Force pilots.

from here...
http://www.amazing-airplanes.com/fighters/f-15.asp

now, if ya wanna know just how amazing this aircraft is, watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3K8BfI6BPM

this seems pretty impressive too...

The museum's single-seat F15A, nicknamed "Streak Eagle," broke eight time-to-climb world records between Jan. 16 and Feb. 1, 1975. In setting the last of the eight records, it reached an altitude of 98,425 feet just 3 minutes, 27.8 seconds from brake release at takeoff and "coasted" to nearly 103,000 feet before descending. It was flown in its natural metal finish to reduce weight for the record-setting flights. To protect it from corrosion, McDonnell Douglas Corp. has since painted it in the gray color scheme of most operational F-15s.

[CAP1]

Some of my old posts on the subject might still be in the forums, if you search back far enough...

For this discussion though, it isn't too tough to summarize.  Equal pilots, 1 vs. 1., in a close-in guns only fight, a flanker has a great chance of getting the first shot from a position of advantage most of the time.  It has both enough slow speed maneuverability and thrust/weight to be able to get and keep an F-15 defensive yet unable to run away.  An F-18 has great low speed maneuverability, but it doesn't have the thrust/weight to keep the temporary advantage it can gain with it's high angle of attack capability.  The flanker has both.

Throw missiles or even a slightly more complicated scenario in there however, and the systems integration of even the "old" F-15Cs may be decisive.  The aim-9X, amraam, and even old aim-7, combined with either the old or new AESA radar, plus the new helmet mounted sight, is utterly lethal because it means that if the eagle driver can *see* the opponent either visually or with the worlds best air to air radar, the opponent is dead dead dead.  The joke about "wish them dead" weapons is pretty darn accurate when you consider the new off-boresight capabilities the eagle has.

Not saying that the flanker and all of the fielded missiles available for it are not good either, but on balance I think the eagle is still easier to fly and employ which means faster detection, targeting, and weapons employment with a high Pk.  And the real world scenario is never a simple as 1 vs. 1 (or even 2 vs. 2), which means the time from detect to shoot gets delayed.  Again however, that is where the F-15 systems are still outstanding.  Still, the more recent SU-27 variants are getting better and better, and an F-15 without support is still just an old fighter with good missiles.  Which is why it is long past time to replace the F-15.  Maybe someday the USAF get an F-15 replacement but that isn't looking very likely for the forseeable future.

And of course the caveat is still don't get into a knife fight with a flanker because he'll turn up his own bunghole and shoot you before you know what happened.  The best bet even if you have to do a visual ID is to sneak up unobserved or deny him a shot (classic out of the sun sort of stuff) until you get close enough to see him, get your ID, then run away bravely while your wingman takes him out with an amraam as soon as you are far enough separated to not get fragged.

nice write up.....

but a question now......you said equal pilots in these aircraft.

 how does our training compare to theirs? is it really better>? i mean, do our pilots know their aircraft, and their enemies better than their pilots do?


 assuming our pilots and crews are better trained, would that be enough to bring the eagle out on top in a guns fight?

 i don't mean this to be offensive to anyone.....just asking. i've never seen a flanker fly, but i did get to see an eagle fly at mcguire....and calling it impressive is a HUGE understatement.

[eagl]

The USAF fighter training, not only the initial training but the recurring training, is far more extensive than MOST other military programs.  We program in a minimum of approx 250 hrs annually of continuation training per fighter pilot in "peacetime".  That is a lot of flying, and most other air forces can't afford that.

Any air force that budgets in that much continuation training and follows flexible "western" style tactics will arguably have pilots who are "equal" to ours.

[Plawranc]

I volunteer an opinion from men like yourself Eagle.

US experts on fighter design and US Combat pilots/instructors say there is a major difference between Russian and American fighter design.

Put simply: The US thinks the Dogfight is dead - The Russians think its more alive now than ever

The designs of each aircraft show that to be true, you yourself said that a Heavy F-15 eagle would be a bit worried if it got close in with a Flanker or 29. And ever since Korea US pilots were told, NEVER TNB WITH A RUSSIAN.

Russian Missile and Radar technology is not as advanced as US Tech atm, but your observations are correct Eagle. Mass production of the Mig 35 and SU-35 has been put up with the Russian (Generation 4++) plan. LC Displays and the latest in Russian Missile and Radar which is now better than US 15 and 16s ON PAPER (yet to be proved) and a Russian equal to the F-22, the Sukhoi T-50.

I think the US should Revamp its military, cause Putin is.

[bozon]

In setting the last of the eight records, it reached an altitude of 98,425 feet just 3 minutes, 27.8 seconds from brake release at takeoff and "coasted" to nearly 103,000 feet before descending.

No F way it went up to 100kft.

[eagl]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streak_eagle

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Yea, with a 104:0 Kill ratio in Eagle, and 74:0 in Viper I think they're holding they're own

While remembering those encounters were against two to three decades older planetypes and superiority in radar support and numbers. In the end win is win but a theoretic 1 vs 1 fight might still end differently.

[CAP1]

While remembering those encounters were against two to three decades older planetypes and superiority in radar support and numbers. In the end win is win but a theoretic 1 vs 1 fight might still end differently.

the israelis do not fight bvr. they've scored kills with missiles, and guns.