Real life encounters of the FLanker vs Eagle

[bozon]

the israelis do not fight bvr. they've scored kills with missiles, and guns.

They do fight BVR, but the environment is rarely suited for that so the emphasis is short range engagements and less relying on electronics.

[bozon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streak_eagle

No where there it mentions reaching 100 kft. It does mention that the service ceiling is 65 kft and I know they struggle to get there.

[Golfer]

Whatever you do don't type "Streak Eagle Records" into Google or anything.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=2283

The single-seat F15A on display at the National Museum of the United States Air Force, nicknamed "Streak Eagle," broke eight time-to-climb world records between Jan. 16 and Feb. 1, 1975. In setting the last of the eight records, it reached an altitude of 98,425 feet just 3 minutes, 27.8 seconds from brake release at takeoff and "coasted" to nearly 103,000 feet before descending. It was flown in its natural metal finish to reduce weight for the record-setting flights. To protect it from corrosion, McDonnell Douglas Corp. has since painted it in the gray color scheme of most operational F-15s.

Streak Eagle is an early preproduction aircraft. Differences in internal structure and systems operation made it too costly to return to operational service. It was delivered to the museum in December 1980 after it was no longer useful as a flight test vehicle.

[CAP1]

No where there it mentions reaching 100 kft. It does mention that the service ceiling is 65 kft and I know they struggle to get there.

here ya go snarky.  

The museum's single-seat F15A, nicknamed "Streak Eagle," broke eight time-to-climb world records between Jan. 16 and Feb. 1, 1975. In setting the last of the eight records, it reached an altitude of 98,425 feet just 3 minutes, 27.8 seconds from brake release at takeoff and "coasted" to nearly 103,000 feet before descending. It was flown in its natural metal finish to reduce weight for the record-setting flights. To protect it from corrosion, McDonnell Douglas Corp. has since painted it in the gray color scheme of most operational F-15s.

from here
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=621

dam!! beat me to it!!

[SgtPappy]

The USAF fighter training, not only the initial training but the recurring training, is far more extensive than MOST other military programs.  We program in a minimum of approx 250 hrs annually of continuation training per fighter pilot in "peacetime".  That is a lot of flying, and most other air forces can't afford that.

Any air force that budgets in that much continuation training and follows flexible "western" style tactics will arguably have pilots who are "equal" to ours.

After reading much of Tom Clancy's "Fighter Wing", I can confidently say that the US has taken no comprises since Vietnam to make the USAF a much more effective, efficient and highly versatile weapon.

[bozon]

Whatever you do don't type "Streak Eagle Records" into Google or anything.

I did. The "coasted" description is missleading. It did not fly at 100kft, it zoomed up there ballisticly, flamed out according to some sources and restrated the engines on the way down. It is an altitude record, but I do not call this "flight". It reached 100kft like a stone hurled into very thin air at Mach 2. The combat aircraft can barely make it over 60kft and still maintain level flight, but this is at very high speed exceeding Mach 2. If you point it up from there, I can see how it shot itself to 100 kft.

The altitude record for proper jet flight is held by the SR71.

source: http://www.flightsimbooks.com/f15strikeeagle/01_03_Development_of_the_Air_Force.php

Computer projections at McDonnell Douglas predicted that the F-15 would easily beat many of the current time-to-altitude records. In early 1975, the Streak Eagle program went into operation, and at Grand Forks Air Force Base in North Dakota, a modified F-15 broke all existing time-to-altitude records. This one had been stripped of its gun, its radar, some avionics, the tail hook, one generator, some of the hydraulic system, and the flap and speedbrake actuators. Even 40 pounds of external paint were removed. After achieving the 30,000 meter record (98,425 feet), the F-15 continued up to over 102,000 feet before falling over and starting its descent.

[xbrit]

No F way it went up to 100kft.

Hmm but you just said it did.

[Golfer]

You say they can "barely make 60,000 feet" as though it's some simple task.   

Still yet you scoff at a fighter flying at damn near 100,000 feet.  I suspect those numbers don't mean much to you and you have no idea why so I'll just let you have whatever point you're trying to make.

[SIK1]

I did. The "coasted" description is missleading. It did not fly at 100kft, it zoomed up there ballisticly, flamed out according to some sources and restrated the engines on the way down. It is an altitude record, but I do not call this "flight". It reached 100kft like a stone hurled into very thin air at Mach 2. The combat aircraft can barely make it over 60kft and still maintain level flight, but this is at very high speed exceeding Mach 2. If you point it up from there, I can see how it shot itself to 100 kft.

The altitude record for proper jet flight is held by the SR71.

source: http://www.flightsimbooks.com/f15strikeeagle/01_03_Development_of_the_Air_Force.php

  keep tap dancing. Obviously a former member of the Clinton defense team

[bozon]

Hmm but you just said it did.

Yes, because the description in the quote from the museum led me to believe it was in actual flight. I did not know that altitude records included ballistic zooms.

You say they can "barely make 60,000 feet" as though it's some simple task.   

Still yet you scoff at a fighter flying at damn near 100,000 feet.  I suspect those numbers don't mean much to you and you have no idea why so I'll just let you have whatever point you're trying to make.

You don't know the first thing about me. I'll just say that I know how high F15 can get and how it gets there in an actual operational flight not from reading about it. Hence the claim for extra 40,000 feet or so made me jump. You can now go back to you discussion about which plane has the biggest "pitot tube".

[Golfer]

Whatever you say, ace.

The Streak Eagle still set those time to climb records and did so without the help of your definitions.  I don't think anyone ever suggested it was during an operational flight nor would anyone suggest an a line ready fighter be able to do it.  The altimeter read 98,000'+ and 102,000'+ getting there under its own power.  It flew there.

Personally I'm fine never having been higher than 51,000'

[Babalonian]

Bozon, we were talking about F-15s and their capabilities versus the Su-27, not pitot tubes you lowly troll.  You're the one that interupted us with your "I call BS" post without even bothering to google it, and now you're further disrupting the conversation because we called BS on your BS and you were wrong, no matter how much you wish to change this topic's discussion from "Flankers vs. Eagles" to "how to properly define a speed-altitude record because I fubbed".  Go grab your coolaid and otterpop from the firdge and go take your nap please while we continue our discussion, or we'll sick Skuzzy on you.  Feel free to continue trying to save your grace in your own topic and thread on the subject, we'll gladly continue ridiculing you there.

----

Now, back to the subject. 

Great post Eagle, love your input on this.  I'm curious though if you wouldn't mind elaborating a little more, what block/model Su-27, F-15 and F-18 are you specificaly refering to in your statement?  Are you taking into consideration the most current Su-27 in stock or the most prevolent, versus the F-15E (strike eagle, I know mostly AtG, but "better" and "faster") and the F-18E (single-seat super hornet, again, stated to be "better" and "faster" engine and speed-wise upgrades over its predecesors)?

[eagl]

None of the hornets really have the thrust/weight to fully capitalize on their high AOA capability.  Even a well flown F-15E has a chance in a dogfight against a hornet if he survives the first 1.5 turns.  All current F-15s have an edge against every SU-27 variant I know of, in terms of cockpit ergonomics and system integration.  For example, while the mig-29 and SU-27s had helmet mounted cuing systems before any USAF fighters did, the USAF helmet mounted sights are a lot closer to having a hud taped to your face.  The original Russian design helmet mounted sights were little more than a "dumb" aiming reticle, and the plane simply knew where to aim the missile based on where the pilot was looking.  There wasn't much feedback to the pilot on what was actually going on.  The US system was a decade (or more) later and has a ton of features.  You can basically cue any system through the sight, validate a lock and see if you're in shot parameters, and shoot, just by looking through the helmet and pushing a couple of buttons on the stick and/or throttle.  I don't think you can do that with any production flanker, and that doesn't begin to go into some of the *other* systems integration features of the F-15 (slightly different between F-15Cs and F-15Es, but they both have some neat capabilities).

Plus, the AMRAAM and aim-9x are deathsticks, plain and simple.  I can't express how impressed I was with the AMRAAM when I had a chance to dig into the data we have on actual live firings (both tests and in combat).  There are better missiles on paper, but none have the proven track record over dozens (hundreds?) of shots like the AMRAAM does.  Even the old aim-7 has received upgrades and is still in service because it is still a very good missile.  AA-10 and AA-11 are likewise great missiles though, so it may come down to who can run through their identification matrix, cue systems, and take the first shot while denying a shot to the adversary. Classic missile defensive maneuvers haven't changed much, but the ability to shoot from goofy angles has certainly improved for everyone.  We don't have true rearward firing missiles like in the movie firefox, but we're not that far away from that sort of ability (shooting someone who isn't right in front of you).

The ability to look out the window at someone and "wish them dead" is here, now, and we didn't have to wait for the JSF to do it.  That is a tactical advantage that goes beyond mere single-ship maneuvering capability.  A talented pilot who can fully utilize his aircraft's systems is generally worth more than a few extra degrees per second of turn rate, and USAF systems are integrated to the point where even an average pilot can be really effective and act quickly on information gained from multiple sources.

[eagl]

double post

[-tronski-]

I've always believed the RAAF should've gone the F-15E/K route instead of the F/A-18F to replace our F-111C's

 Tronsky