Yet Another Horde Thread

[RTHolmes]

The only real solution is for the squads to exersise a little restraint. You don't need to be told what an unfair, un-fun fight is. Just avoid doing it. After all, you are organized enough to control the action. The choice is yours. 

words of wisdom

In the short term using your squad's numbers and experience will get your name in lights, improve your score, make it easy on yourself etc. In the long term all it does is discourage individual players, and players with less experience. ie. new subscribers. keep going this way and eventually there will be no one left to shoot.

we have 3 wings and a total of ?80 registered players, so strictly speaking we are a megasquad. however there is very rarely more than 10 of us flying at the same time, and when there is we try not to completely swamp an area because we are very aware of the gameplay implications. if there are 10 of us on, we will try to start a fight somewhere away from the rest of the knits because overall for gameplay its better to have 3 fights with 10 knits in each rather than 1 fight with 30. it doesnt always work out that way, but that is the the goal. on the very rare occasions that theres 20+ of us on, we will be attacking/defending 2 different locations.

hordes are rubbish anyway - generally the opposition will just go somewhere else, and if you do want kills you have to compete with your own side to get them.

like vinkman suggested, if youre in a big squad you can have a big impact on everyone's gameplay, and this also means you have a responsibility to use those resources wisely, for the sake of everyone playing.

[MonkGF]

I would like to see fights. I'm tired of logging in and see a big darbar. Up from a near-by base only to get there AFTER the horde has taken the base and disappeared to some other undefended area of the map.

I've been up the last 3 nights in LWB and each time have been involved in huge furballs over a base that lasted quite a while. Last night there was a huge furball / GV fight at one of the Bish Vehicle Bases that went on for over an hour. Sure, it's possible to run sneak attacks to grab a base, and frankly sometimes that's the best way to break up a horde (I was involved in one attack to grab a Vehicle Base to take the pressure off a different base one of the nights), but I've done several runs of lifting up from a base to gain alt to dive through the horde. I've just jumped into too many "horde fights" over the last couple of weeks where there have been M3s/Osties driving around and manned ack guns defending while planes make passes on the horde and the base has held to believe that this is some huge major sweeping problem.

I think the 3-country setup is a bigger deal. When I logged on last night, it was 37/75/65 country numbers. At least the 37 were doing their best to defend the couple of bases that were under heavy attack, but aside from an occasional side buff run to try and pork a base it was nearly all defense.

[Lusche]

I would like to see fights. I'm tired of logging in and see a big darbar.

And I'm tired of logging in and seeing virtually no darbars, which happens after you-know-what cripples arenas at my prime time during weekdays


Actually I love big red darbars. I'm magically attracted by them. If they are accompanied by a big or no green darbar at all is of secondary importance and guides only my choice of plane and takeoff location. They provide me with action and kills.

[dirtdart]

Man, once the naysaying dweebs who always emerge on the first page or two of a post migrate, the remaining have brought up some great points and discussion.  Been some really good reading and has adjusted some of my perspectives on the game. (Happens often enough, I still have my first adjustment PM from Lute years ago, thanks Lute) To you gentlemen of the boards, a big <S>.  I did like Dads idea on capping country #s, just don't know what the effects would be of doing so to retaining players, etc.  Might help balance out the sides numbers wise....  Is there a master list which states how many people are currently affiliated with each country?  Just wondering...

[hitech]

I swear, if hear another "they did XXX in ww2". Ill loose it.

I don't know why you all get so tired of hearing the above statement.  Equally is seen, "I remember back in AW........".  

I'm ready for HiTech to step in, please do something about the hoards (or however you want to spell it), ho-ing, picking, ramming, not being able to find a fight, caps, eny, (add your own).    

Please HiTech, just dump the game and start all over.  I think you should go back to the beginning because all the years you, your staff, and volunteers have spent creating this game is all crap now.  Do something before your game collapses, all the players quit, your employees are laid off, and you go bankrupt.

Jeeeeeeeeez it never ends.

Soon to be the last player in the game.

Fred

I'll step in but not like you think.

The reason people get tired of that statement is the exact same reason  I detest it.

AH is a simulation using WWII aircraft, and NOT a simulation of WWII. As I have said before, games are meant to be FUN and FAIR, war is neither. So almost any statement "they did XXX in ww2" is not considering what is the most fun in the main arenas.

HiTech

[Dragon]

I'll step in but not like you think.

The reason people get tired of that statement is the exact same reason  I detest it.

AH is a simulation using WWII aircraft, and NOT a simulation of WWII. As I have said before, games are meant to be FUN and FAIR, war is neither. So almost any statement "they did XXX in ww2" is not considering what is the most fun in the main arenas.

HiTech

See, it's just a game.  Have fun with it.

[dirtdart]

I play this game because it is the most fair game I have played, period.  It really hinges on pilot skill, plane choice, and sa.

[RufusLeaking]

Instead of complaining about hordes, you should figure out a way to combat against them...

This is the hard part.  A horde has the advantage of initiative.  That is, they (presumably) know where they're going and lift at roughly the same time.

To run an anti-horde would require a number of defenders to sit on alert until the target was obvious.  For high alt hordes, it would require a high CAP.  It is dull to sit and wait, or orbit and wait.

I had a great time within the last month when a horde came into a base, which happened to have a friendly cv within its radar circle, and an inbound enemy cv inbound.  It turned into a rare persistent furball.  Defenders and attackers could re-up quickly and keep the fight going.  This confluence of factors is not typical.  I don't know how to change anything to make this more common.

[MonkGF]

This is the hard part.  A horde has the advantage of initiative.  That is, they (presumably) know where they're going and lift at roughly the same time.

To run an anti-horde would require a number of defenders to sit on alert until the target was obvious.  For high alt hordes, it would require a high CAP.  It is dull to sit and wait, or orbit and wait.

Or pork their bases while they are in the air...

[FALCONWING]

I really dont think it should be so hard to understand....

Larger towns with good ack = Need for large numbers to capture the base

If anyone intended for there not to be a return to the days of large "hordes" then they don't understand human nature...

I have assumed that "the powers that be" intended for this to occur with the changes to the town....


There are three reasons to play an online game:

1.  community/friendship etc
2.  Combat
3.  Accomplishing objectives


Right now I am playing AION quite a bit....and while I like fantasy characters and "killing" orcs etc (COMBAT)....i mainly "grind" away because i want the gold/special armors/levels (ACCOMPLISHMENT) that doing it allows me.  If it was just me running around attacking wandering monsters then i would get bored quickly...


Since we all agree that score means very little in this game...then taking bases etc are the main "accomplishments" that can occur....it now requires overwhelming force to do this...

[FALCONWING]

The horde are a result of people playing with out skill. They need the "safety in numbers". The horde won't disappear untill people learn to fight their way out of a wet paper bag. The best way to reach this end is by having these "mega squads" train their people. I know, most will say they do have training, and some of them even do   but until they train and then use them as trained groups they will have hordes.

Ummm I call bs here...there are many "fiter/l33t" sqwadz that only fly in packs or on the fringes of established furballs...you never find them alone or out of their jets...Once again it is pretty much impossible to take a base unless it is completely undefended without overwhelming force so i dont think it is a "safety in numbers" issue and definitely not the result of ""megasquads"   The only thing you dont need large numbers for is simple fiter sweeps and that gets boring after a while...

Right now they use 30+ people to hit a base, and sometime they get it, sometimes not. Even if they "train" like they say they do, they run missions as a horde because they either don't trust the training they have done, or they have to admit that they really havn't trained at all. If they were a trained group they could take two bases at the same time with that many. Hitting 2 bases at the same time would force the enemy to split their defense making their attack work even better.

Let me know when you want to take a base with 15 people and i'll take 4 of my squaddies and deny you all night long...i could probably do it with 2...

Until these "mega squads" can be honest with themselves and truly train, and use those trained elements as attack groups we will have skillless hordes counting on numbers to get done what skill could get done on a wider scale.

so to be clear...what you REALLY want is for the hordes to be more easily rolling bases so they can capture more bases with the same numbers...that is what you think is would be best for the gameplay???

[The Fugitive]

Here is a simple analogy.

There are 5 guys on one team (AKA "The HORDE"), and one guy on the other team. They sit down to play chess. 4 of the guys grab the single player and hold him down while the 5th player sweeps all of the single players pieces from the board except the King. Then they play, and the single player can only "say" where to move his king because the 4 other players still have him tied up. Who wins EVERY time? The 5 players are a team, they are elite, they are undefeated, and they are having fun.   The single player well, he's not having fun. Soon he leaves and the 5 players can take turns sweeping the pieces of the board because it's only them, and again they are having fun.  

What I'd like to see is the other 4 player each pull up a table and set up another board and each plays me (the single player) at the same time. I now have a chance to win....maybe not a very good one as I'm not all that good at chess.   The point is I can have fun because there is a chance to "win" (a goal), some room to play (fight), and best of all, odds are I'll keep playing giving the 5 guys a chance to win (goal) and some room to play (fight). With us all playing and having fun there is a chance at community and friendship.

If steam rolling bases is what you pay your $15 every month I say to you, you missing out on sooooooo much more. That is what I'm trying to point out in these threads. I'm just here trying to have some fun. Unfortunately getting pounded by 20 bats at the same time over and over again really isn't all that much fun.

[bmwgs]

I'll step in but not like you think.

The reason people get tired of that statement is the exact same reason  I detest it.

AH is a simulation using WWII aircraft, and NOT a simulation of WWII. As I have said before, games are meant to be FUN and FAIR, war is neither. So almost any statement "they did XXX in ww2" is not considering what is the most fun in the main arenas.

HiTech

I think the point I was trying to make was misunderstood, or as usual I failed to put in writing what I was trying to convey.

I agree with everything you said, and I will even go as far as to say I get tired of hearing it also, but what I was trying to state is that I am equally tired of hearing about the "good old days", or "how is was back then", or "how the game has changed for the worse", "how you will have to intervene and do something about the NOE's or what ever".  Satisfy these old hounds, please intervene and lets get it over with.  I don't mind change, matter of fact I like it, so lets make them happy, do something about the mega squads or what ever.

The simple point I was really trying to make, is I think this game is as fun, or funner(may not be a word) than it was when I first started playing.  For years I hear the same old bunch complain about the same old stuff.  It reminds me of a Soap Opera, it is just a constant circle of complainants.

Fred

[sky25]

I think the point I was trying to make was misunderstood, or as usual I failed to put in writing what I was trying to convey.

I agree with everything you said, and I will even go as far as to say I get tired of hearing it also, but what I was trying to state is that I am equally tired of hearing about the "good old days", or "how is was back then", or "how the game has changed for the worse", "how you will have to intervene and do something about the NOE's or what ever".  Satisfy these old hounds, please intervene and lets get it over with.  I don't mind change, matter of fact I like it, so lets make them happy, do something about the mega squads or what ever.

The simple point I was really trying to make, is I think this game is as fun, or funner(may not be a word) than it was when I first started playing.  For years I hear the same old bunch complain about the same old stuff.  It reminds me of a Soap Opera, it is just a constant circle of complainants.

Fred

Bmwgs, You couldn't have said it better.. Too many old farts thinking about the good ole days and forgetting that time goes forward not backwards. Things change... Way too many of them on these forums..

[FALCONWING]

Here is a simple analogy.

There are 5 guys on one team (AKA "The HORDE"), and one guy on the other team. They sit down to play chess. 4 of the guys grab the single player and hold him down while the 5th player sweeps all of the single players pieces from the board except the King. Then they play, and the single player can only "say" where to move his king because the 4 other players still have him tied up. Who wins EVERY time? The 5 players are a team, they are elite, they are undefeated, and they are having fun.   The single player well, he's not having fun. Soon he leaves and the 5 players can take turns sweeping the pieces of the board because it's only them, and again they are having fun.  

What I'd like to see is the other 4 player each pull up a table and set up another board and each plays me (the single player) at the same time. I now have a chance to win....maybe not a very good one as I'm not all that good at chess.   The point is I can have fun because there is a chance to "win" (a goal), some room to play (fight), and best of all, odds are I'll keep playing giving the 5 guys a chance to win (goal) and some room to play (fight). With us all playing and having fun there is a chance at community and friendship.

If steam rolling bases is what you pay your $15 every month I say to you, you missing out on sooooooo much more. That is what I'm trying to point out in these threads. I'm just here trying to have some fun. Unfortunately getting pounded by 20 bats at the same time over and over again really isn't all that much fun.

Ummmm...i'm not following the chess analogy because the 4 guys are breaking the law and violating the rules of the game and not really winning anything because thats not how you play chess....

IF part of how you derive satisfaction from this game is by accomplishing something...in this case taking a base...then the current game setup dictates the need for overwhelming force to accomplish this task...this is what generates the NEED for hordes...it is not a lack of skill...4 guys in 110s and c47s cant drop a town and take it even unopposed...this was not always the case

In case I havent been clear...i do not advocate hordes and i HAVE lost alot of interest in the game because all that i can really do when i log on is hope to dive into a few darbars and get some kills...rinse and repeat...this amuses me for about 3-4 sorties and i log and play another game...this was not always the case either