Check Six!

[Messiah]

You're absolutely right, it's important to know the other plane's capabilities as well as knowing your own.  However, that knowledge is useless without the basics and that's knowing BFM and ACM.  Without knowing those two basic things it isn't going to matter what you do or what plane or who is on your six and learning the latest "trick du jour" isn't going to change that fact.

TalonXVX challenged me to the DA the other night and it became really clear after the merge that this was a person that had virtually no concept of BFM and absolutely no clue as to what ACM was.  All that it took to beat this guy was a simple Immelman Turn on the merge that put me on his six, this is a basic flight maneuver not even ACM.  I tried to explain it to him and what both BFM and ACM were and how to use them.  All he focused on was this "miracle move" I was pulling on the merge and that's all he wanted to learn, he didn't want to learn anything else so I left.  Saw him last night in the MA talking about mastering the "P-38 Himmelman" merge.  

ack-ack

Shhh don't reveal the secrets of the P-38 Himmelman!

[ink]

saying that it does not matter what plane the guy on your six is in, is kind of silly.  It makes all the difference in the world.  You cannot respond the same way vs all the planes.  My reaction will be different vs a zero, a Ki84, a 190, a p40 or a hurri. 

Every plane has a weakness and and a strength.  You have to exploit the first and try to minimize the second.  So, yeah, what plane is on your six makes a huge difference no matter who the pilot is.  You have no clue who the pilot is, but you know what plane it is.  Start from there.

you in your statement without knowing it completely confirms what I am saying 

you state that depending on the plane,  will depend on the reaction YOU will take.....the plane YOU are controlling can not "react" on its own. YOU know and understand the weaknesses and strengths of any plane that may happen to get onto YOUR 6,
    I will bet that if you really think about it,it is the E situation and the position of the nme that will more than likely determine what YOU do and how YOU react,  The plane type itself will be less important as to it's position on you,  obviously if you are in a 51 going 500 miles mph and a zero tries to climb to ya and set up a passing shot YOU know it wont be able to climb with ya, Again I say YOU know it cant climb with ya...Yes knowing your nme ride is crucial, and understanding ACM is crucial, having good SA, all these things YOU the stick achieve not the plane.

I don't know, it seems so simple to me I could care less what someone is in, I know what every fighter in the hanger can and cannot do, I also know that there are sticks that can do stuff in planes that are not supposed to be possible, or their reaction time is just that much quicker, or they are smooth in there maneuvers, or they can put rounds into an exact spot every time, this is why I say the plane is far less important compared to who is controlling it.

this coming from a guy who use to have headbutt wars with a steel industrial refrigerator!!!!!! and in my humble opinion......he won!

hehe that fridge pissed me off i tell ya

[dedalos]

you in your statement without knowing it completely confirms what I am saying 

you state that depending on the plane,  will depend on the reaction YOU will take.....the plane YOU are controlling can not "react" on its own. YOU know and understand the weaknesses and strengths of any plane that may happen to get onto YOUR 6,
    I will bet that if you really think about it,it is the E situation and the position of the nme that will more than likely determine what YOU do and how YOU react,  The plane type itself will be less important as to it's position on you,  obviously if you are in a 51 going 500 miles mph and a zero tries to climb to ya and set up a passing shot YOU know it wont be able to climb with ya, Again I say YOU know it cant climb with ya...Yes knowing your nme ride is crucial, and understanding ACM is crucial, having good SA, all these things YOU the stick achieve not the plane.

I don't know, it seems so simple to me I could care less what someone is in, I know what every fighter in the hanger can and cannot do, I also know that there are sticks that can do stuff in planes that are not supposed to be possible, or their reaction time is just that much quicker, or they are smooth in there maneuvers, or they can put rounds into an exact spot every time, this is why I say the plane is far less important compared to who is controlling it.


hehe that fridge pissed me off i tell ya

It depends on what you mean by "I don't care".  If you mean you are not afraid we agree.  If you are saying that it makes no difference on your reaction, we disagree.  Everything you typed above depends on knowing what plane is on your six.  Sure it comes down to E states and position but you will react to that based on what plane it is and even what guns it has.  I wont respond the same way vs a 4 cannon bird and vs a 6 50 cal bird.  If its a zero behind me, I will try to get him as fast as possible before starting to turn with him.  If it is a 51 or 190 (and for some reason they did not run) I will try to get them as slow as possible.  All this, with out having a clue about who the pilot is.

[ink]

It depends on what you mean by "I don't care".  If you mean you are not afraid we agree.  If you are saying that it makes no difference on your reaction, we disagree.  Everything you typed above depends on knowing what plane is on your six.  Sure it comes down to E states and position but you will react to that based on what plane it is and even what guns it has.  I wont respond the same way vs a 4 cannon bird and vs a 6 50 cal bird.  If its a zero behind me, I will try to get him as fast as possible before starting to turn with him.  If it is a 51 or 190 (and for some reason they did not run) I will try to get them as slow as possible.  All this, with out having a clue about who the pilot is.

yes when I say "I don't care" I mean I am not "worried" about any plane,  and yes my reaction will vary depending on situation and plane....but this is my whole point "we" react one way or another the plane itself does nothing on it's own...so the stick controlling said plane is who you are fighting not the plane.

perfect example, I rarely fly the BnZ queens, one sortie I was out in a 152, flying on the deck I encounter a zero, I love to push every plane I am in so of course I TnB with this Zero, in two turns I made him explode.....I knew he was a noob as the merge was happening, so I ask you was it my "plane" that allowed me to kill him or me? or the fact that he had no clue as to proper BFM-ACM?   


one more question, How long does it take you to know someone is a noob or not, in a dogfight?

it all comes down to the person controlling said plane, the plane is secondary.

one last point, you are flying along in your ride of choice, and you know..say Grizz is out in a K4...you see two K4's in front of you, you know one of those K4's is Grizz, who would you want to engage?

me personally I want to fight the best of the best...so I hope and pray that Grizz is in the K4 I engage, I don't care what that guy fly's he is gonna put up a fight if not kill ya, no matter what you or he is in.

 

[dedalos]

yes when I say "I don't care" I mean I am not "worried" about any plane,  and yes my reaction will vary depending on situation and plane....but this is my whole point "we" react one way or another the plane itself does nothing on it's own...so the stick controlling said plane is who you are fighting not the plane.

perfect example, I rarely fly the BnZ queens, one sortie I was out in a 152, flying on the deck I encounter a zero, I love to push every plane I am in so of course I TnB with this Zero, in two turns I made him explode.....I knew he was a noob as the merge was happening, so I ask you was it my "plane" that allowed me to kill him or me? or the fact that he had no clue as to proper BFM-ACM?   

I think we are confusing subjects here.  The question was " do you care what plane he is in", not did my plane or I killed him.  So, as you answered above, you do care what plane he is since that will dictate your tactics.

To answer your question, in this case it was not your plane that killed him and I would say it was not you either.  The guy was just clueless and killed him self.  If he had equal skills with you, his "plane" would have won.

one more question, How long does it take you to know someone is a noob or not, in a dogfight?

Not long at all, but if he is not a noob and he is on my six, I better be able to take advantage of his planes short comings fast or I will be in the tower

it all comes down to the person controlling said plane, the plane is secondary.

Agreed, but at the moment of contact I have no idea who the guy is.  I have to assume he is good and my reaction will be based on what plane he in.  At that exact moment, that is my only and most important clue.  Once we have noob icons the plane will not be as important at that moment.  Once the engagement begins all that goes away and it is you vs him, but that was not the original question. 

one last point, you are flying along in your ride of choice, and you know..say Grizz is out in a K4...you see two K4's in front of you, you know one of those K4's is Grizz, who would you want to engage?

me personally I want to fight the best of the best...so I hope and pray that Grizz is in the K4 I engage, I don't care what that guy fly's he is gonna put up a fight if not kill ya, no matter what you or he is in.

Well, yeah, but how do I know who is in that K4?  Maybe I want the easy guy first so I can have a 1 vs 1 with Grizz without having to worry about being picked.  All I know is that I see 2 K4s and I will adjust my tactics based on that fact, Grizz or no Grizz.  Always assume they are not nubes and if it turns out that they are even better.

[ink]

 

you are so stubborn 

I think I am seeing your point...but I also think we are both right..


....cuz I am stubborn myself  


all this damn talk makes me want to go kill some lemmings....

 

[FLOTSOM]

all things being equal is the answer in itself, all things are equal.

if you fear the plane but its ridden by a lousy pilot then mentally you have defeated yourself,

if you fear the pilot but he is ridding in an outclassed plane then mentally you defeat yourself,

if you fear any plane no matter the make, that is booming in then mentally you have defeated yourself,

if you fear any plane that begins to turn, no matter the make, like he is twisting pretzels by hand then mentally you have defeated yourself,

all things are equal.

a competant pilot, in a compatable plane, under the enviormental conditions that the plane was created for, and within that pilots comfort zone, that is the aircraft i most fear on my six. but each part of that fight, starting with who has advantage to what kind of plane to does he fly like he is skilled all reveal themselves in steps as the fight progresses from the first sighting to the final dying. the mystery is the thrill of 99.99% of the fighting in the MA's. its the unraveling of the mystery in each step in its turn that gets the adrenaline truly pumping.

[dedalos]

you are so stubborn 

I think I am seeing your point...but I also think we are both right..


....cuz I am stubborn myself  


all this damn talk makes me want to go kill some lemmings....

 

  

[Muzzy]

all things being equal is the answer in itself, all things are equal.

if you fear the plane but its ridden by a lousy pilot then mentally you have defeated yourself,

if you fear the pilot but he is ridding in an outclassed plane then mentally you defeat yourself,

if you fear any plane no matter the make, that is booming in then mentally you have defeated yourself,

if you fear any plane that begins to turn, no matter the make, like he is twisting pretzels by hand then mentally you have defeated yourself,

all things are equal.

a competant pilot, in a compatable plane, under the enviormental conditions that the plane was created for, and within that pilots comfort zone, that is the aircraft i most fear on my six. but each part of that fight, starting with who has advantage to what kind of plane to does he fly like he is skilled all reveal themselves in steps as the fight progresses from the first sighting to the final dying. the mystery is the thrill of 99.99% of the fighting in the MA's. its the unraveling of the mystery in each step in its turn that gets the adrenaline truly pumping.

Well said.

[Reschke]

Anything...that means I did something really stupid to let them get there and I deserve to have my cartoon pilet shot out of the virtual sky in a game.