Beating a dead horse

[Urchin]

I know I'm not the only person that thinks the niki should be perked.  But, just for the sake of argument, I want to hear from folks that like the niki the way it is.

My basic stance is that the Niki is an easy mode plane, with 4 cannons and a pretty good amount of ammo.  I'd dearly love to see it perked, probably about the same price as the C-Hog, maybe a little more expensive because I think the Niki is a "better" plane, even though it hasn't seen the use that the C-hog had.  My reasoning here is mostly selfish, by the way, and I won't make any bones about it.  None of the planes that I fly have a snowballs chance in hell against a niki, unless the pilot is blind, mentally retarded, or both.  And before anyone starts with the "J00 sux0rs, I kill nikis all the time" crap, and tries to insinuate that the problem lies with the pilot (i.e. me) and not the plane (109f4,g2,g10, 190a5,a8)- I'll say this.  I'm not a bad pilot.  I may not be the greatest stick ever to fly the LW birds, but I'm not bad either.  I can handle most any plane out there in a fight, can fight to a draw with spits and La7's- the only plane that will get me 95% of the time regardless of E state or pilot "skill" is the Niki.  And running from them gets rather old, as I'd make a rough guess that probably 40% of the planes I see are Nikis, probably another 30% are spits, maybe 20% are La7s and P51s, with the balance being covered by various other types.  So, in my estimation, I have to run from 40% of the planes that I see because I know, realistically, I am going to get shot down if I engage them.  And that doesnt even cover the more intelligent niki pilots that climb above 10k to go search for victims.  Against those I may as well bail out when they get within 2k.
Anyways, I can cover one argument for you guys before you even say it.  

Argument 1 - "The Niki pilots will just move on to the next "best" plane.  

My answer - Fine by me.  They'll either go to the Spit (which would be great, because I cna hold my own against them), or the LA7 (which at least has a few weaknesses, and I can generally fight them on even terms).

Either of the two replacement planes I could fight with, and generally say the best pilot won, no matter what the outcome was.  When I fight a niki, I pretty much have to say the best PLANE won- no matter how good the pilot was.

As always, I like to see a lot of responses, even if you don't agree with me.

[AKDejaVu]

Do you have a more difficult time against the F4u-1C or the N1K?

AKDejaVu

[Urchin]

Honestly, I would say I have a more difficult time aginst the Niki.  When I first started playing, C-Hogs would tear me up because I wasn't a good enough pilot to avoid the guns.  I still have a losing record aginst them in fighters (I'm 9-7 because I shoot em down in M16s and Osties).  I think I am something like 1 and 5 in fighters against them, while I'm not sure of my record against Nikis, I think it is a little better (K/D wise).  However, my record against D-Hogs was about the opposite (I think something like 7 or 8 to 1).  This would lead me to believe that with the C-Hog, the GUNS are what made the plane good, not the flight characteristics.  With the Niki, it is the exact opposite.  The way the plane flies makes it incredibly easy for a pilot to shoot other planes down.  While my record in it was rather poor (only about a 2-1 k/d), it was because I flew the Niki a helluva lot less cautiously than I fly a 190 or 109.  I basically plunged into furballs with reckless abandon, fought 3-4 to 1 odds, and I STILL managed to get a 2-1 K/D in the thing.  If I fly the niki like I flew a "regular" plane (i.e. my normal rides), I am sure I could rack up a 5 or 6 to 1 k/d in it.  I don't think I could do the same thing in a C-Hog, because it is not an easy plane to fly.

[AKDejaVu]

Also.. one thing to point out:

Any argument based on "I can't beat this one plane so it should be perked" means that the next plane to be perked is the one you fly.

AKDejaVu

[Yeager]

In order for a perk system to be truly functional every single unit must be perked to some value.

For unperked machines go to the training or dueling arena.

Y

[sling322]

blah blah blah...perk this perk that.

If ya perk the N1K2 then ya gotta un-perk the F4U1-C...or else then the Spit or La-7 is next in line.

[DeeZCamp]

I have out flown good n1k pilots with a 51 or even a spit<--another easy mode plane , with lead/lag turns, vertical flight, as well as overall better E managment.  

The fact of the matter is though, is that the n1k here is so easy(not even challenging to fly) that almost anyone can get in it and shoot almost anything down. For the most part, People go and fly only planes that are simple to fly in. Expamples are the Spits/n1k/ and sometimes zeros.

People that fly planes like the P47, P51, 190A8 and 109's are actually earning more of thier kills because it takes more of a thought-out way of flying IMO. The Fight is almost never on your terms in aircraft like these unless YOU make it that way.
  In contrast, the n1k Has some super power to always wind up climbing to almost anything given close E states, has the ability to still manouver at 50mph(EFFECTIVELY) as well as regain energy(in the form of speed) as fast as almost anything. Along with all these amazing feats, it Turns like a spit V and zero.

Its simple to fly, the Fight is almost always on YOUR terms if your in a n1k, and 1 micro burst from the cannons will tear a b17 in half. SO HERE is the reasonong behind why this thing is flown so much.

I never fly it, I would rather Fly and fight in somthing that is outclassed in every respect to know that I actually won the battle, not the PLANE, (in the case a n1k)

Another thing I notice about the n1k is that IT takes a Massive amount of damage before it is taken down.  WTF? I thought this thing was a modified zero with bigger engine !? are'nt we talkin almost fabric here?  

hehe anyway, yep.. perk the stooooopid thing =) its really a modified F-16 with UFO antigravity boosters disguised as an WWII fighter  
 i'd say about as much as tempest 70 perkies?  

[mrfish]

long boring response ahead!

i would like to see the n1k stay as is for a few reasons.

1st - not everyone flies a plane that is vunerable to the n1k. i imagine there are planes in the planeset that turn great with a n1k. my frustration comes from having to outclimb or outrun them knowing full well that a 109 isnt going to turn with them (well the 109f4 is better here but only for one turn or so). it is boring having to fight that way. the point is not everyone flies doggy turners so i have to think it is my problem for choosing the 109 and not the arenas.

2nd - i feel the la7 is a much bigger threat. it does great in a lot of areas the n1k doesnt and a perked n1k will = an arena full of la7s. i'd rather go up against an n1k any day as i havent really found a weakness in this bird....YET  

3rd - it is a consession between gameplay and strict simulation. on the one hand you have guys like the 56th fighter group - zemkes wolfpack who learn a specific plane and the strategies that go with it and fly it right regardless of what everyone else is doing and could care less about their scores or recognition and have a good time doing it. on the other hand you have the guy that gets 2 hours a week between work and his ol bag naggin and just wants to kill stuff without climbing for an hour or listening to his stall horn go off constantly. he will never have time to learn a 'real plane' and i say he shouldnt have to - even if it is at my expense. it is still a community game.

my opinion only but,i guess i am surprised that in a wwii sim, people would gravitate to the n1k anyway. i mean i probably read one paragraph about the n1k before this game because it was pretty insignificant and i have been a plane enthusiast since i could read maybe earlier. i dont get why people arent drawn to p51s, p47s, p38s, zeros, 109s, 190s, b17s and spits etc.......why some obscure japanese plane? fortunately, imo the game still accommodates both gamers and history/plane buffs.  

i like a challenge so i fly a harder plane. lots of people do and sometimes very quietly. i like finding them because i have a lot of respect for people like that. p51B guys for example. i die almost as much as i succeed but i have fun doing it and that's the point. if someone is flying an n1k to drive their score so what - its kind of a pyrhic victory because at the end of the day you just have a bunch of n1k kills! anytime you use a gimick to get kills you are never going to be satisfied with the numbers. if people would kinda disperse their plane choice on their own there would be no reason to perk it. i dont think anyone would mind seeing them in less numbers. yikes long post! hang in there urch!

[Erlkonig]

Pyro has acknowledged that there needs to be "work and changes" done on the N1K's FM. I'll take a "wait 'n see" attitude until then.

[Robert]

There is one part of this post that I agree with. And I’m not sure about it because I know very little about the N1K1.

Another thing I notice about the n1k is that IT takes a massive amount of damage before it is taken down. WTF? I thought this thing was a modified zero with bigger engine !? aren’t we talking almost fabric here?

Inevitably it seems like it take 2 to 3 burst to kill this plane even if I’m at the perfect range and getting sustained hits. But then again I’ve seen them fall apart with very short burst as well.

RWY

[MrRiplEy]

Probably a better way to regulate planes that are 'too' good would be to limit their use to a certain % of the total planes in air. That way newbies and limp-wrists ( :oP) could still fly them, but not when half the arena is upping in them already.

A realistic amount of n1ks could be 4-8% of the total amount of planes.

Same could be applied also to rest of the uberplanes, this was the situation in real life also. The best planes were limited in numbers and only flown by the few and the chosen. Then if those uberplanes would be 'manufactured' in certain factories, it would make an awesome strat target.. End the flow of uberplanes from the enemy.

If 202 would be the only plane with unlimited availability, you'd have 10x more variety in the arena.

Now there will probably be some attacking with 'I will quit the day I cant fly what I want' comments.. Well you don't always get the railgun or stimpack in quake either.. - you're still playing it ain't you?

[ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: MrRiplEy ]

[Urchin]

Also.. one thing to point out:
Any argument based on "I can't beat this one plane so it should be perked" means that the next plane to be perked is the one you fly.

AKDejaVu

 

Good point Deja, and there is really nothing that I can say to argue with you, other than to say I relly doubt any of the planes I fly will be perked, because they all have weaknesses to go with their strengths.

[Urchin]

blah blah blah...perk this perk that.
If ya perk the N1K2 then ya gotta un-perk the F4U1-C...or else then the Spit or La-7 is next in line.
 

Sling- I have to disagree with you on this, although we do at least agree that those two planes would be the most likely to see an increase in use if the niki were perked.  Again, this is only from a LW-centric point of view, because those are the planes I have the most experience in.

109 vs. Niki - the G10 is the only one with an even chance of surviving the fight.  It can do this by running.  The other models cannot outrun a Niki, nor can they outclimb, outdive, outturn, or outroll one.

190 vs Niki - the D9 has the best chance to outrun one, other than that it is screwed.  The A5 is screwed no matter what, the A8 has a chance if it can hit with a 30mm snapshot, or get lucky in a HO pass.  If the fight goes for more than 1 or 2 passes, the 190 will lose.  If there is someone out there that flies a 190 and can kill Niki's, please let me know, because I haven't found a way to yet.

[Tuomio]

I tried n1k for several sorties and you really cant lose a 1vs1 fight in it. If the opponent is cautious and wise, you still can bore him with your break turns, which will soon get him in making mistakes.
Only the n1k vs n1k fights get tough, but this is with every plane.

Pyro has mentioned, that there will be fixes to n1k FM, so this isnt really necessary dead horse beating.

I havent had troubles with them since i started flying Yak again, but before that the 190:s i flew (not dora) got almost no chances against it.
With Yak vs N1K, the flights get LONG and you have to usually bleed his alt to deck, which makes him dog food. But in AH, long flights are risky, since friends usually arrive soon looking for action.

I would imagine, that with good snapshotting capability (p47, typhoon etc.) n1k:s habit for break turns can actually give opportunities.

Edit: Urching, nothing is so satisfying, that  to get n1k HO fixated on your 190a8..=) But A8 has so many flaws, that its only SENSIBLE use is buff hunting.

[ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: Tuomio ]

[Urchin]

my opinion only but,i guess i am surprised that in a wwii sim, people would gravitate to the n1k anyway. i mean i probably read one paragraph about the n1k before this game because it was pretty insignificant and i have been a plane enthusiast since i could read maybe earlier. i dont get why people arent drawn to p51s, p47s, p38s, zeros, 109s, 190s, b17s and spits etc.......why some obscure japanese plane? fortunately, imo the game still accommodates both gamers and history/plane buffs.

 

MrFish- the Niki may have been insignificant historically, but since people have a tendency (and I am no different) to equate "kill-stats" with skill, many people gravitate to a plane that is easy to get kills in.

Also, about the LA7.  A 190 will outroll one, so generally you can get away even if you can't kill one 1v1.  The 109g2 and f4 will actually outturn them at low speeds, so if you can get them into a low and slow turn fight or scissors you will win.

About the Niki damage - I have never noticed that it is any tougher than most planes in the game. A solid shot from a 20mm will kill them just as easily as any other plane, the problem is getting into a position where you can take a shot.  I have noticed that some planes SEEM to be frailer than the others- the P38 is a noticable example.  I can generally shoot these down with the 12mm MGs in the later model 190s and 109s.  The 190A series also seems to be rather frail, it will lose its engine a lot more readily than any other plane in the arena (with the possible exception of the P38).