Nothing to see here, move along

[Shuffler]

<---- Puts AlumINium foil hat on.




I blame the aliens.

AFDBs are great.

[Dichotomy]

I don't understand what everybody is so upset about.  We've got a little less than two years left on this planet as it is.  Party it up, make a pass at that cute chick, screw the bills, play your cartoon butt off, and get vaporized with a grin.

Come on 2012 

[Penguin]

If we're going to argue about corruption, look at the 800 pound gorilla!  The oil companies have, and are lobbying heavily to make sure fuel efficiency is low!  Why on earth are these guys made to look like saints?  What do they do with their profits?  Drill shoddy wells in extreme environments, and then cause a catastrophe!

How can you guys overlook the oil companies?  Scientists, whose top earners are barely cracking 100k per year, are the swindlers?  Are you kidding me?

-Penguin

[Raptor]

muzzy
yes find alternatives but don't price the standards out of existence until you do.
If there was something more profitable than oil, don't you think the private sector would be all over it?
To subsidize alternative fuels with tax dollars, dollars no one has is ridiculous.
Global warming is not about climate change it is about power/control on a global level.
One of the first steps in the creation of this global community is knocking the US down a peg or two or three.
One of the first steps in that is devaluing the dollar....

Oil production is one of the most heavily subsidized businesses in America, with tax breaks available at almost every stage of the exploration and extraction process, according to an analysis by The New York Times. The tax breaks average about $4 billion a year, based on various government reports, and are preserved by the oil industry's massive political influence.

See full article from DailyFinance: http://srph.it/aULll8

Your last two or three just sound like conspiracy theories people will say in order to influence people's emotions to make them for/against an issue and have no credibility.

[Raptor]

muzzy......do a little research into what it costs(dirty wise) to build a "green" car. or anything "green". you may find that they aren't quite as green as you're lead to believe.

Can you post something backing up this statement? If you are going to mention a fact you need to post it.

[Eagler]

Oil production is one of the most heavily subsidized businesses in America, with tax breaks available at almost every stage of the exploration and extraction process, according to an analysis by The New York Times. The tax breaks average about $4 billion a year, based on various government reports, and are preserved by the oil industry's massive political influence.

See full article from DailyFinance: http://srph.it/aULll8

Your last two or three just sound like conspiracy theories people will say in order to influence people's emotions to make them for/against an issue and have no credibility.

Oil shouldn't be subsidized either. Two wrongs don't make a right. And to prevent our own drilling making us dependent on others (those that don't care for us or our way of life) for our immediate energy needs is irresponsible.
Time will tell if my tin foil hat is on too tight - I hope that is the case but current events imo say otherwise.

[CAP1]

Can you post something backing up this statement? If you are going to mention a fact you need to post it.

i read that about a year or so ago. been trying to find the websites in between working on the cars here at the shop......

also.....common sense. look at what's in the cars now, compared to back then.

 lets see.......most have seatbelt pre-tensioners. these are small explosive charges. one on each seat belt. then there's the airbags. then there's the plastics used throughout the car. then there's the fiberglass. then there's the lithium batteries. i forget if they're lithium polymer, or lithium ion.....but either way, they're filthy to make, and the lithium i believe reacts with the air, if it's exposed.

[Raptor]

If you can find a source showing that production of a hybrid car is worse than production of normal car, then I am would consider that. Doesn't sound like it is any worse for the environment than the production of a sedan.

[Fishu]

Can you post something backing up this statement? If you are going to mention a fact you need to post it.

At least this is true with the energy saving lamps, which are much more complicated to produce. Hard to say about the cars though. At least the batteries of electric cars aren't as easy to dispose as the fuel tanks (also hybrid cars will increase the amount of disposed batteries), and the electricity too has to be produced in a way or another. Even recycling requires energy and resources, which in turn will cause pollution. Apparently the massive amount of required electricity to power millions of electric cars isn't going to be produced by nuclear power reactors, since the greenie/climate hippies (e.g. the Greenterrorist organization) are against those as well. Any other way of producing electricity with the currently available technologies isn't going to make cars any greenier than oil - the cars may be greenier, but the pollution is only transfered elsewhere.

The question really is that have we reduced pollution overall or have we just moved it elsewhere.

[CAP1]

If you can find a source showing that production of a hybrid car is worse than production of normal car, then I am would consider that. Doesn't sound like it is any worse for the environment than the production of a sedan.

the lithium batteries alone would make it worse.

here's a qyuicjk one.....to be honest, i didn't read much of it, as my parts for the last job of the day just got here.....i'll look more for ya tonight when i get home.

[Muzzy]

the lithium batteries alone would make it worse.

here's a qyuicjk one.....to be honest, i didn't read much of it, as my parts for the last job of the day just got here.....i'll look more for ya tonight when i get home.

Disputed here:

http://www.grist.org/article/dust-to-dumb/

Battery toxicity comparison here: http://www.hybridcars.com/battery-toxicity.html

The lead batteries we use now are far worse, but there is an effort to dispose of them responsibly. Similar efforts would minimize the problems with lithium.

[bj229r]

If we're going to argue about corruption, look at the 800 pound gorilla!  The oil companies have, and are lobbying heavily to make sure fuel efficiency is low!  Why on earth are these guys made to look like saints?  What do they do with their profits?  Drill shoddy wells in extreme environments, and then cause a catastrophe!

How can you guys overlook the oil companies?  Scientists, whose top earners are barely cracking 100k per year, are the swindlers?  Are you kidding me?

-Penguin

Well...now I don't have to watch Keith Olberman

[CAP1]

Disputed here:

http://www.grist.org/article/dust-to-dumb/

Battery toxicity comparison here: http://www.hybridcars.com/battery-toxicity.html

The lead batteries we use now are far worse, but there is an effort to dispose of them responsibly. Similar efforts would minimize the problems with lithium.

you do realize that lead/acid batteries do not spontaneously explode? or that damaging them will not cause them to explode, right? and that the acid is very easily neutralized, right? and that rupturing a lithium battery most likely will result in some form of an explosion or fire, right?

ok.....i dunno who started the hummer/prius comparison. try comparing a prius to a like car....such as a camry, or corolla. the prius will lose i think.

 going looking now for links for raptor

[CAP1]

ok...here;s a link or two.......i actually thought they were all using lithium batteries...and i think the newer ones are. the older ones used nickel metal hydride batteries.

Another thing to consider with hybrids is the battery that stores the electricity. Most hybrids use a nickel metal hydride system, which requires nickel mining, which is often done in open cast mines with all the attendant pollution that goes along with excavating large holes in the ground. Luckily, nickel metal hydride batteries are non toxic and they can be recycled, but at a cost.


A hybrid also requires plenty of copper wire for the electric motors, further increasing the actual cost and environmental effect of constructing the car. Hybrids are also commonly 10 percent heavier than a similarly sized car, which means more power has to be produced than usual to achieve comparable performance. This is why many hybrids these days are actually mild hybrids, with a generator that produces electricity as the vehicle slows down, taking weight off the alternator, allowing it to work less, and therefore save fuel. Not as much as a hybrid, but the system is much simpler and easier to produce.

Once the car is built and on the road, the popular perception is that you are ‘doing your thing for the environment’ and this is true to some extent because a hybrid will use less fossil fuel than a conventional car, regardless of the way you drive it. Remember that a hybrid will probably never match the listed fuel efficiency because of the way the efficiency test is done, and because unless you only ever drive on heavily congested streets you won’t be utilizing the hybrid system effectively. Drive on the highway, for instance, and the petrol engine will be working all the time, negating the effect of the hybrid system.

from here.....  http://www.newcarpark.com/blog/68/hybrid-cars-negative-environmental-impact/

and check out this gem. i'd think that just the below bolded causes more pollution/environmental problems than a 600hp corvette causes over its entire lifetime(including the cost to build it)

Environmental Costs of a Prius

When analyzing the environmental costs of a car, the energy to plan, build, and transport the car must be taken into account, not just the car's miles per gallon figures. The Prius has two engines, gas and electric. The electric engine is made from nickel mined and smelted in Sudbury, Ontario, Canada. From Ontario, the nickel is transported to Wales, UK to be refined, then shipped to China where it is made into nickel foam, and finally to Toyota's plant in Japan where the nickel is made into a hybrid battery.

from here....  http://www.suite101.com/content/environmental-costs-of-buying-a-toyota-prius-a109887

pay particular attention in the "clean diesel vs hybrid" heading.....


and this......
You may be surprised if you thought hybrids were the obvious winners.

    The Honda Accord Hybrid has an Energy Cost per Mile of $3.29 while the conventional Honda Accord is $2.18. Put simply, over the “Dust to Dust” lifetime of the Accord Hybrid, it will require about 50 percent more energy than the non-hybrid version, CNW claims.



from here.......  http://37signals.com/svn/posts/115-look-beyond-gas-mileage-when-making-an-environmental-choice
and here's the company that did the research....  http://www.cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/

and one last one so i can go eat....but there's plenty to read in the links......
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/19/study-the-toyota-prius-has-a-dirty-side-after-all-manufacturi/

[Muzzy]

The report and company you cited were specifically debunked in the first article I posted.  Further debunks here:

http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science/case_studies/hummer_vs_prius.pdf

CMW's report is not peer reviewed, which means they aren't releasing the data that supports their conclusions, nor are they allowing other scientists to review their work. Peer review is an important part of validating any paper, and the fact that CMW is skipping this process makes their conclusions suspect.  Further, the mileage used in the calculations is biased in favor of the hummer.  The Hummer H1 is assumed to travel 379000 lifetime miles, while the Prius is assumed to travel only 109000 miles.  This is an unfair comparison.  On top of that, the conclusions are in conflict with several other papers on the subject. In a nutshell, CMW is cooking the results and a simple statistical analysis can prove it.

Oh, and lithium batteries can explode, but so can lead batteries. I didn't find any information as to which is more unstable, but they will both explode if shorted, heated, or overcharged.  Most of what I read on lithium stated the chances of such things occurring are relatively small.