109K4 V Spit 14

[ink]

hmmm lets see, take the 14 up to 10k get it into the 500 mph range do the same with the K4 I wonder what would be the differance hmmmm

[JunkyII]

Think you'd be better off comparing the 16 and the 14 for your argument.

K4 has nothing in common with the 14 aside from being driven by a piston engine.

He doesn't want the 16 perked, its probably his main ride

[dirtdart]

Some of last tours stats (forgive me if I do not recall ENY values)

109K4 10,424 kills with 1.56 K/D 20 ENY
F4U-1C 5,780 kills with 2.95 K/D Perked
N1K2 12,084 kills with 1.16 K/D 5(?) ENY
P51D 31,518 kills with K/D of 1.37 8 (?) ENY
Spitfire XIV 1,121 kills with K/D 1.37 Perked
Spitfire XVI 19,355 kills with K/D 1.11  5 ENY
Tempest 2,933 kills with K/D of 6 Perked

The below chart breaks down the percentage of the total number of aerial victories these planes had in relationship with each other based on last tours #s, 341K kills or so.  



So, there are three ways of looking at the issue, kills, performance, usage.  

On kills alone, Pony D needs to be perked, not the 1c.
On performance, lets skip that for a second....
On usage, well if I recall correctly the F4U-1c was not perked when introduced, it was perked because it became "the" airplane.  This is what I have heard, not sure.  Afterall it is the same as a 1d with a 10 IIRC ENY, except the cannons.  Should the planes that are used the most and responsible for the bulk of kills be perked or have their eny lowered?

So, back to performance.  First assumption is that the planes in question are flown within their envelop against planes with similar characteristics.  I hate to beat up the anti-brewster guys, but you get killed falling into the brewsters fight.  P-51, K4, and Spit XIV and even the spit XVI (close stats) are similar to the K4 in straight line tests, but in turning the K4 falls short.  (Using hammers website http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php ) The Spit XIV has a no flap turn radius 70 feet tighter than a K4 (16 is 130 feet tighter).  So, to most pilots out there, the bulk of the guys in the MA, the spits will dominate the K4, as they will tend to devolve into a turn fight.  Now to the pony needs to be perked guys, the P-51D has performance numbers drastically lower than these other airplane except speed.  Even there it falls short to the K4 and XIV at most altitudes.  

Anyway, regardless of how you slice the stats, there is not one plane that dominates all flight envelops for most pilots.  

As to the K4 being 20 ENY.  Well, I am glad it is there at that level.  It gives you a chance to fly a plane with LW performance even when ENY is stacked against you.  Because the K4 is pretty much all I fly, the XIV does not concern me as much as another K4.  

I would propose that the perk system wander around like eny does after every tour.  Whichever airframes are responsible for the bulk of the kills, then their eny is altered.  If there is a perk ride that sits unused like the XIV, then lower the ENY until it starts being used more.  Perkies were meant to be spent.  It is not like any of the perk rides except the jet and the rocket plane, are really that decisive to most pilots.  

[Yenny]

I can take a any Spit 8-16 up and land 10 kills w/o rearming a lot easier then doing the same thing on the K4. 30mm is great, but you acutally gotta land your rounds. With the hispanos I can just fire 5-10 rounds burst and down almost any fighter plane, at up to 600 yards easily. I can't do that w/ 30mm without wasting 10-15 rounds. Spit14 gets a lot easier in a turnfight, where the K4 demands a lot more work to be successful in the same scenario. I feel safe flying a spit, acutally more like godly. Knowing that I can take on just about any plane in the game w/o an issue. Where K4, if I run into the spit and it comes down to 80 knts 100 feet rolling, I might break a sweat if it's a good pilot flying the plane.

[grizz441]

K/D is not a great measure of a planes MA effectiveness and lethality.  The K4 is easy to stay alive in flown timidly, but how do we know a lot of pilots aren't only getting 2-3 kills a sortie before landing?  I'd be more interested in seeing 109K4 Kills/Sortie statistic compared to the field to see how lethal of an MA fighter it really is.

Not to mention, it does not take into account the strata of players that are flying the K4.  I don't see too many newbs or even intermediate level players flying it.  Same situation with the P38J.

[dirtdart]

Well put.  I always have more concern about seeing another K4 than a spit for that reason.

[Yarbles]

He doesn't want the 16 perked, its probably his main ride

Now you have insulted me  

My main ride in fighter mode is the 14. I was just having a regular duel type dogfight in the DA with Nrshida and we concluded the k4 isnt at a huge disadvantage here either having much more forgiving stall characteristics.

Now I fully expect a pumped up chest thumper to come on and explain to me how it is but before anyone takes their ego for a walk the majority of people who play this game are not of the stature of Grizz etc. I flew the K4 all turney against the 14 and vice versa with Nrshida today in the DA and I don't reckon theIr is anything in it except the 14 is easier to handle at the limit.

Conclussion and here is the incendiary it should be much close to the 14 and even the 16 in eny   

[Ardy123]

K/D is not a great measure of a planes MA effectiveness and lethality.  The K4 is easy to stay alive in flown timidly, but how do we know a lot of pilots aren't only getting 2-3 kills a sortie before landing?  I'd be more interested in seeing 109K4 Kills/Sortie statistic compared to the field to see how lethal of an MA fighter it really is.

Not to mention, it does not take into account the strata of players that are flying the K4.  I don't see too many newbs or even intermediate level players flying it.  Same situation with the P38J.

I agree with Grizz on this. I feel the vast majority of kills (as Snailman has pointed out), are done by a few people. I'm  going to be a shameless self promoter here and point to the fact that in the 'POTW 3d wing', accounts for almost 10% of all the k4 kills! and of that group, it really comes down too 4 pilots who flew the k4.

957 kills in a k4 were done by 4 guys in our squad...
same with 989 kills in a p51D....

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/sqdkillstat.php?selectTour=LWTour131&player=Krupnski&kt=3970

[ink]

well that settles it Ardy you guys are now offically grounded from the K4 and 51 we will not be having you guys flying them, grounded to comence forth with..........hehe

[AWwrgwy]

If you actually look at who is getting kills in K4s, it's a bit more than a dozen pilots.  Otherwise, it would seem "the average pilot" take one up, dies once or twice, and, not being able to hit anything, never flies it again.

Why should the perk be lowered?  You don't see them all over the arena.  They are not so overwhelming as to change or disrupt gameplay when they show up.

"It has a big gun" does not seem to be justification.  The only reason I can see for asking for the K4 eny to be lowered is "I keep getting killed by them".  Same for the Brewster and people asking for the P-51 to be perked.  If you're getting killed by them, it must be the plane, not you.

Sure, unperk the Spit XIV.  Look what unperking the Ta152 did?  Nothing.


wrongway

[Ardy123]

well that settles it Ardy you guys are now offically grounded from the K4 and 51 we will not be having you guys flying them, grounded to comence forth with..........hehe

 

So you would prefer us to start upping in ki84 and spit 16s.... lol

[bustr]

If you use gonzo's page to compair the F4U-4, P51D, Spit14 and K4 you will see the F4U-4 makes the P51D look like a dog in MA combat performance terms. I understand perking the F4U-C after using it a bit last tour. Pray-n-Spray was imortalised by it in spades. Pull the trigger, wiggel the stick, kick the rudder and nothing escapes it's death shower.

So why has the F4U-4 and spit14 been perked but the K4 not? When looking at the results from gonzo's compairison alone they are almost clones.

One thought is the F4U-4 is so much easier to fly than the K4 and spit14 along with getting the flaps out at a higher initial speed. The F4U-4 has a similare graph to the K4 and spit14 in MA combat terms. If it's simply the single 30mm in the K4 keeping it unperked. Fly it for a week non-stop like a timid Hit-n-Run 51D and you will start landing 2 kills on average. Never turn fight in it just run through furballs at high speed and shoot from 200 or closer. Then run away or climb away on WEP.

The spit14 has the ease of spraying at an opponent the F4U-4 does so I can see perking for that. But the spit14 is harder to fly than the F4U-4 out of the box for newbies or less dedicated players. I would place the spit14's mastery in line with the K4 to become what a few players names in the game have elevated it to.

If the F4U-4 were unperked today I'm willing to bet the P51D's usage would drop off by half over night. If the spit14 were unperked today, a small handfull of vets would master it like with the K4 and create a new AH Urban legend about it's Uberness. I doubt spit9, 8 or 16 usage would be impacted.        

[Ardy123]

One thought is the F4U-4 is so much easier to fly than the K4 and spit14 along with getting the flaps out at a higher initial speed. The F4U-4 has a similare graph to the K4 and spit14 in MA combat terms. If it's simply the single 30mm in the K4 keeping it unperked. Fly it for a week non-stop like a timid Hit-n-Run 51D and you will start landing 2 kills on average. Never turn fight in it just run through furballs at high speed and shoot from 200 or closer. Then run away or climb away on WEP.

The big thing the the monster 4-hog, is that not only as you pointed out, it can climb and run with the best, it can TURN, and subsequently accelerate out of that turn fast. Not even the p51 with its combat flaps, can accelerate like the 4hog. So where the k4 may have equal climb and speed, the 4hog can out turn it with ease, making it a much superior dog fighter.

Not only is it easier to fly, its easier to get kills in. The 6 50s allow for much easier shots from longer range than the 1 30mm, with its low rate of fire and poor trajectory.


I still don't see why the spit 14 is perked... it may be a slightly better k4 in stats, and it does have hispanos, but I hear it has awful stall characteristics.

[Yarbles]

If you actually look at who is getting kills in K4s, it's a bit more than a dozen pilots.  Otherwise, it would seem "the average pilot" take one up, dies once or twice, and, not being able to hit anything, never flies it again.

wrongway

Is a good point.

[maddafinga]

If you actually look at who is getting kills in K4s, it's a bit more than a dozen pilots.  Otherwise, it would seem "the average pilot" take one up, dies once or twice, and, not being able to hit anything, never flies it again.

Why should the perk be lowered?  You don't see them all over the arena.  They are not so overwhelming as to change or disrupt gameplay when they show up.

"It has a big gun" does not seem to be justification.  The only reason I can see for asking for the K4 eny to be lowered is "I keep getting killed by them".  Same for the Brewster and people asking for the P-51 to be perked.  If you're getting killed by them, it must be the plane, not you.

Sure, unperk the Spit XIV.  Look what unperking the Ta152 did?  Nothing.


wrongway

Is there some way to find this stat?  I'm a little interested to see the names on this one.