K4 vs Spit 16 climb

[STEELE]

I may have to reload AH, because my K4 climbs about 4300-4500, and the spit 16 is climbing at 4600-4800 or better, is this correct?

[MiloMorai]

Better reload AH as the Spit is climbing to slowly.

[Debrody]

Take a look on this:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/planeperf.php?gtype=2&pw=1&p1=86&p2=1&submitButtonName=Generate+Chart

Their fuel duration is the same, 25mins at full power. The k-4 is 7500lbs heavy when its tank is full, its DB-605 D produces 1800hp and it can do 4450ft/min on the deck. The spit16 is 7250lbs heavy, its Packard-merlin can produce 1700hp and it can do 4650ft/min on the deck (well at 1k, it takes a while to reach the maximum climb rate).

Their performance is almost matched then, but a spit16 gains a little bit of advantage. I noticed 4 things:
   First, that chart shows the k-4 a bit better than it is in the game. Maybe its from the difference between how i and the chart-drawer tested theese planes.
   Second, the spit handles way better at low speeds, and easily catches the numerically almost equal 109.
   Third, the 109 has better power to weight ratio, 1 horsepower carries 4,167 pounds, while in the spit16 each horsepower carries 4,264 pounds. Not as much difference, but the spit gains advantage even though it should perform a bit worse. This is from the spits larger wings and more lift.
   Fourth, they have the same amount of power, and the spit16 is much slower. That means the spit-airframe is way more draggy than the 109 airframe.

[R 105]

 I am not a spit16 pilot or a 109-K4 guy for that matter. However to me it seems the Spit16s nose starts to fall in the vertical clime some what faster than the 109-K4. I can turn the 109 around at the top of the stall faster also. The 109 takes damage way better than any Spitfire. If I get hit by a BB the spits come apart.

[Anaxogoras]

Brody,

I believe our K-4's DB 605D produces 2000hp at WEP with C3 fuel.

[Debrody]

I believe our K-4's DB 605D produces 2000hp at WEP with C3 fuel.

I dont think so. Then our 109 could do 5000+ft/min easily, due to its extremely good power to weight ratio, and sweep every spit from the floor. It currently isnt able to do it. Also the germans were pretty much outta quality fuel at the end of the war.

[Krusty]

Concensus from past discussions is that we're no even close to the 2000 hp that didn't see much production/use. Although we do have some skins with red legs (meaning C3 fuel if I recall) but this doesn't tie in to the engine model.

[Anaxogoras]

Well, I'm probably wrong then.

Still, is it a sound method to argue backwards from in-game performance?

[Krusty]

No I'm just saying that from in-game performance we don't have 2000 hp modeled in our 109K4s, this per several long debates and various 109 threads, countless requests to add the C3, etc, etc.

Not making any real judgements, just saying how we have it modeled.



Now for a real judgement: Steele, the spit16 is uber in every way. Out turns almost everything in the game, outclimbs everything in the game (it's still doing over 4000 fpm on WEP up to almost 20K), outrolls all but the fastest rollers (which it matches), can insta-ping anything with the hispanos, can accelerate like nobody's business, can chase down even P-51s on the run and catch them (its top speed is enough to catch most planes, but the ludicrous acceleration lets it catch faster planes before they can get to their top speed).


You should know this: Spit16 is super easy mode in every aspect. The only thing it does NOT do is carry 3,000lbs to a target 500mi and back.

Don't be surprised if one chases you down, catches you in a climb, out turns you, out rolls you, or generally is impossible to shake -- that's just how HTC modeled it.

[Anaxogoras]

Indeed.  For main arena purposes the XVI is better than the XIV.

[MiloMorai]

Brody,

I believe our K-4's DB 605D produces 2000hp at WEP with C3 fuel.

Only if the boost was 1.98ata. C3 power was approx that of B4 + MW50 power > 1800hp. 1.98ata wasn't cleared for use till late March 1945.

The Germans had quite a lot of C3 fuel with production being ~ 2/3 of all avgas production. The problem was they couldn't get it to where it was needed.

[Bronk]

And we still do not have a late model spit.

[Mirage]

C3 is just 100 octane fuel, or is there a difference in the chemical make up of it compaired to regular 100oct?

[Ardy123]

According to AH's charts, the climb rates are very similar, with the k4 having the advantage at low alts.


Late in the war though, not only did they have C3 fuel for many of the k4s, they had added a new prop which increased the speed. The prop was sweept backwards in some weird way, which increased the top speed by 18 mph.

[Krusty]

C3 is just 100 octane fuel, or is there a difference in the chemical make up of it compaired to regular 100oct?

German fuel was not gasoline.. It was synthetic, often processed from charcoal and other things.

This is why it belched big black clouds of smoke when pilots attacking bombers would firewall their throttles. Bomber gunners mistakenly reported hits/kills because they thought they had shot the engine up, but it wasn't the case.

The C3 was comparable to 100 octane, at the high end... For using it at lower throttles there were different characteristics. I don't recall if it was the German gas or post-war testing US gas in German planes, but at lower power settings you had greater chances of clogging valves and the like, and one ran lean where the other ran rich, or something confusing.

You can generalize it and say top-end was similar to 100 octane. It's much more complicated, though.