Author Topic: K4 vs Spit 16 climb  (Read 3613 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: K4 vs Spit 16 climb
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2011, 04:28:00 PM »
update, it looks like that 1.98 was banned in Jan 20 1945, then reinstated in March '45  :headscratch:

banning the use of 1.98 ata
http://www.kurfurst.org/Engine/Boostclearances/DB_Niederschrift6730_DB605DBDC_20-1-45.pdf

re-permitting the use of 1.98 ata
http://www.kurfurst.org/Engine/Boostclearances/605D_clearance198.html

The JG11 unit was only testing 1.98 ata.

Offline Ardy123

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Re: K4 vs Spit 16 climb
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2011, 04:40:16 PM »
The JG11 unit was only testing 1.98 ata.

It's irrelevant anyway, as Krusty pointed out with data that we have the 1.8 ata + MW50 model.
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: K4 vs Spit 16 climb
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2011, 05:01:01 PM »
Krusty,

along the k4, I believe it was 1850 metric hp, which equates to almost  1824.66 hp(US). Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: K4 vs Spit 16 climb
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2011, 06:21:07 PM »


670kph = 416mph
710kph = 441mph

Offline MachFly

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Re: K4 vs Spit 16 climb
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2011, 07:27:52 PM »
Thought he was referring to the Spitfire, not the Spit16.

That I agree, 109k4 is better than spit16.

I can settle this once and for all....The 109K4 is better than the Spitfire.....  :rock
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Offline Angus

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Re: K4 vs Spit 16 climb
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2011, 09:34:30 AM »
There was a mention at the Spit being much draggier due to it's lower top speed.  Well, it probably is a bit so, but bear in mind that the Spit 16 is optimized for lower altitude than the 109 which means more parasite drag effect.
Also bear in mind, that parasite drag is less at climbing speed then top speed, while induced drag is more at climbing speed than top speed. Which one has the higher wing-loading anyway.
For a matching power and quite similar weight weight on an older pair (Spit I and 109E) I found the spitfire to climb faster, and pull about 10% more Nm. So the wing seems to create more lift in a climbing position.
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Offline Der Jude

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Re: K4 vs Spit 16 climb
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2011, 05:14:37 PM »
Wow, they made aviation fuel from coal? I just assumed it was some sort of ethanol based synthetics. The climb chart comparison does look very even, hmm.  :headscratch:

And do you know what they made their charcoal from!?  :cry How dare you all! No respect. :cry
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Offline STEELE

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Re: K4 vs Spit 16 climb
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2011, 09:21:53 PM »
Back to the original question now, I cant get the K4 to climb as well as the chart says it should, but the sp16 does with ease    :noid
Try them both, you will see what I mean  :headscratch:
Unless I have a fragged K4 file... hmmm
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Offline Karnak

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Re: K4 vs Spit 16 climb
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2011, 10:07:56 PM »
What speeds are you climbing at in the Spit and in the 109?
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: K4 vs Spit 16 climb
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2011, 10:41:26 PM »
. Which one has the higher wing-loading anyway.
For a matching power and quite similar...

109K4 has a higher wing loading and the second statement is just false. The K4 has a much bigger engine.

Merlin 70 was 1,710 hp
DB 605D 1.8 ata was ~2000hp

The key to a 109 out climbing a spit 16 safely is two fold.
1) to use the fact that a 109 k4 is significantly faster at all alts.
2) to gently pull off the throttle when climbing in a 109 once you are ~100 mph so that you can keep moving upward without blowing all your 'e' countering the torque.

Also, note that the spits hispanos allow for it to take shots from a good distance away, which means the spit doesn't need to match your climb rate, it just needs to be able to get its nose up for the shot.

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Offline Karnak

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Re: K4 vs Spit 16 climb
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2011, 10:43:59 PM »
Spitfire Mk XVI didn't have a Merlin 70, but the DB605D did produce a good bit more power than the Merlin 266 it did have as well as the Merlin 66 our Spitfire LF.Mk IXe has.
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: K4 vs Spit 16 climb
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2011, 10:51:33 PM »
Spitfire Mk XVI didn't have a Merlin 70, but the DB605D did produce a good bit more power than the Merlin 266 it did have as well as the Merlin 66 our Spitfire LF.Mk IXe has.

Yeah, good correction. That's correct, and the  Merlin 66 max output was  1,720 hp at 5,750 ft. The Merlin 266 is a licence built Merlin 66 (I believe by Packard)
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Offline Stoney

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Re: K4 vs Spit 16 climb
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2011, 01:36:11 AM »
Third, the 109 has better power to weight ratio, 1 horsepower carries 4,167 pounds, while in the spit16 each horsepower carries 4,264 pounds. Not as much difference, but the spit gains advantage even though it should perform a bit worse. This is from the spits larger wings and more lift.

Fourth, they have the same amount of power, and the spit16 is much slower. That means the spit-airframe is way more draggy than the 109 airframe.

Both of these assumptions are false. 

(1) Power-to-weight ratio means very little.  At a glance, it can be an indicator of relative climb performance, but ultimately what drives climb rate is excess power available.  If the Spit climbs faster than the 109K-4, then it means that the Spit has greater excess power, regardless of power loading or wing loading.

(2) The Spit and 109 both had almost the same Coefficient of Drag.  The difference is that the Spit has almost 70 ft^2 of wing area more than the 109.  I'd argue that the Spit probably had a "sleeker" fuselage than the 109K-4, but that extra wing area is what slows the Spitfire down, not a higher Cd.  There were some other aspects of the Spit wing that decreased top speed performance (washout), but its not necessarily all about the drag, unless we do the math, and determine that.  It could also be a thrust issue.  Its possible for one aircraft, making the same amount of power, to create much more thrust than another aircraft with the same power.
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Offline moot

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Re: K4 vs Spit 16 climb
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2011, 03:12:38 AM »
What specs/parameters do you need to know to calculate excess power?
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Offline Bruv119

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Re: K4 vs Spit 16 climb
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2011, 03:17:31 AM »
The key to a 109 out climbing a spit 16 safely is two fold.
1) to use the fact that a 109 k4 is significantly faster at all alts.

Also, note that the spits hispanos allow for it to take shots from a good distance away, which means the spit doesn't need to match your climb rate, it just needs to be able to get its nose up for the shot.

quoted for truth.   You can look at all the charts, textbooks as you like but spouting luft paranoia due to lazy piloting skills is pretty weak IMO.

I have never ever caught a 109K4 pro in a vertical climb in any spit.   It is only when they try to fight aggressively when they lose to a Spitfire.   Putting square pegs in round holes can't fix stupid.

Fuel states, E states,  angle of climb WEP no WEP all have a big impact on what you deem to be a "slow" K4.  
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