Author Topic: The top 10 reasons the allies won the Rumble 2001  (Read 3200 times)

Offline AKSWulfe

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The top 10 reasons the allies won the Rumble 2001
« Reply #75 on: July 16, 2001, 04:26:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SOB:
Remember.  No One expects the Puerto Rican Inquisition!

Spanish. You Fat Drunk Bastard.
-SW

Offline Hristo

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The top 10 reasons the allies won the Rumble 2001
« Reply #76 on: July 16, 2001, 04:28:00 PM »
Not adding fuel to the fire, but it would be interesting to check average Fighter rank of Allied and Axis participants.

The only squad that flew together on Axis side in the Rumble was Air Squadron. I believe its members got some great results.

Main difference was that Allied concentrated their flights on squads, while we had to work mostly with individuals. And even the flights which were organized had to be reorganized prior to the Rumble. Walk-ons and ad hoc formed flights. Assassins and LeLv34 were two squads I had in mind when we planned the rumble. Assassins got split between sectors, while LeLv34 came with only 1 pilot, Wmaker.

Offline Hangtime

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The top 10 reasons the allies won the Rumble 2001
« Reply #77 on: July 16, 2001, 05:04:00 PM »
<S!> To you Nash.. I had a blast. Thanks again for makin it possible.

Now Nash; one last request: send me yer snail mail addy; cause there's a present from Storm gonna be commin yer way.   :)

On Rumble Tactics... as far as I'm aware; no cage's tactical plan survived contact with the runway. I had in hand a strat overview, and tactical plans from all Cage Leaders, they all sounded great. Even mine. Hell; I cracked this thing down into a list of possibilities; reactions; results; moves; counters... then when I knew they had the password I had to make smoke... kept me up nights worryin, it did.  

When it got time to roll; they ALL got chucked in the crapper. They discovered, as I have; that in the cockpit; with the enemy's dots above you; it's too damn late for strat...

On rumble voice comms prior to the fight; I reminded all of em to brief their pilots on teamwork; to use wingman tactics and to fight as a group. I also cautioned 'em that staying alive was key to success; and to not be inna hurry to get into any fight with unidentified dots above it..

On basic cage layouts I installed a good squad, with a skilled leader in each to be that cage's core.. These guys were all skilled in teamwork; skilled in wing and section tactics and all of 'em had those skills tempered in the fires of bishland over the past coupla years. I had complete confidence in their ability to fight as good a fight as possible; they went in motivated to win; and they made it happen.

The walk on's and singletons just fleshed out those cages, and their contribution was critical too..  but the skilled core was already there in each one; and I never contemplated breaking them up or scattering them at random. The FIRST thing I did in the allied forum was make it possible for the squads to get themselves rostered as they saw fit; in the planes they wanted to fly, and gave them the authority to select the A/C from Hristo's list to be used in those cages.

To the largest degree possible; I simply delegated. Those guys knew how to fly.. in my mind all I had to do was point 'em at the plane lists; and then point 'em at the enemy with a "NO MA FURBALLIN DWEEBISHNESS" admonition. What a great buncha pilots.. damn, they made me so fediddlein proud.   :)

Lastly.. yah I'd like to see more of these. they'll be even easier to do next time around. It was a shame the mission planner attempts went sour, would like to know why they failed. Squad duels sound like fun.. but my passion will remain for these Big Rumbles with over 100 fighters in the air; man; whotta show! It can always go either way..... and I can't wait for next years.

Hristo.. you are sadly lacking in Military Training.. or if you had any; you forgot it. [edit]It was within your prevue to establish your cage rosters and prepare.. you had time. Over a Month!  You selected the planes; had your pick, I never ever questioned it; asked for a change or made a single modification. As overall Axis Commander; it was your responsibility to see to it your pilots had what they needed in hand to win... YOUR responsibility. The failure of the Axis to put up a good fight was not because your crews skills were lacking... YOURS WERE. Take responsibility for your lack of action, your complacency; your decit.... and apologize to those Axis crews  fer lettin 'em down. They came to fight.. you never gave 'em the tools to do it with.

My DI would preach over and over.. (punctuated with whacks from his chicken stick and many hundreds of PT field laps and thousands of push-ups) the following refrain:

YOUfediddleINIDIOTS!!!! HOWMANYfediddleINTIMES I GOTTA TELLUGIRLS ABOUTTHE fediddleIN '7P's??'

PROPER PRIOR PLANNING PREVENTS PISS-POOR PERFORMANCE![/i] YAHBUNCHAfediddleIN donutHEADS!!! DROP; GIVE ME 20 MORE!

<S!> All.. and thanks for flyin.   :)

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: Hangtime ]
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

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Offline sling322

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The top 10 reasons the allies won the Rumble 2001
« Reply #78 on: July 16, 2001, 05:23:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime:

On basic cage layouts I installed a good squad, with a skilled leader in each to be that cage's core.. These guys were all skilled in teamwork; skilled in wing and section tactics and all of 'em had those skills tempered in the fires of bishland over the past coupla years. I had complete confidence in their ability to fight as good a fight as possible; they went in motivated to win; and they made it happen.


Ummm...with the exception of cage 4.  That is where we were flyin'.   :)

Offline Hangtime

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The top 10 reasons the allies won the Rumble 2001
« Reply #79 on: July 16, 2001, 05:31:00 PM »
Horeshit; Sling.  :D

When they get motivated; the FDB's are natural born killers... ask any parachute..  :) We're very relaxed when it don't count... MA furballin is what we enjoy; and nobody takes a scorecard seriously. But I'm not confusing the diffrence between havin a good time uppin goons from a vulched field; and kickin bellybutton when the chips go down.

WTG FDB's. <S!>
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline sling322

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The top 10 reasons the allies won the Rumble 2001
« Reply #80 on: July 16, 2001, 05:47:00 PM »
I was mostly referring to the "skilled leader" part there Hang...I mean c'mon....Fatty was our leader fer chrissakes!!!   :D

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: sling322 ]

Offline Hristo

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The top 10 reasons the allies won the Rumble 2001
« Reply #81 on: July 16, 2001, 05:54:00 PM »
Hang, I see you stirring the pot. Military training ? If I only had a dollar for every live round I fired out of Ak-47 and PK ;).

The intention of turning Axis pilots against me is clearly visible, Hang. Hide it beter  ;). We all did the best we could.

How could I fill cages with squads when there weren't any to work with ? It all looked good on paper, but only Air Squadron showed as full squad. They were deployed in same sector, I am not that stupid.

What about the rest ? To order each pilot to join a squad just for the Rumble ?

It was my intention to get an experienced Flight Leader in each sector. I did it and each sector had one. FLs had liberty to choose any pilot, any plane and any tactic they see fit. They did it. One of FLs cancelled, so he got replacement. The replacement did not show up so we found yet another replacement an hour before the Rumble. The Rumble was lost because players were ad hoc put in different cages with unfamiliar pilots. You can check our forum for all those recruitment threads. The pilots did their best for themselves, but teamwork is not something to come over night. It was my fear from the start - I started a post in June ("Luftwaffe exodus hurts the Rumble"). The core of Luftwaffe pilots left AH. Here lies the seed of the defeat.

Just as it was in real war, old hands were replaced by newbies who only provided the numbers.

I will go a step ahead. You did not fight any Luftwaffe squad in the Rumble. Just singletons and remains of former squads. 9./JG54 had 2 pilots. JG2 had 1, I believe.

In one sentence, Rumble was squads vs Singletons. Each did their best, Squads won. In all 5 cages, in all 3 fights.

Offline Nash

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The top 10 reasons the allies won the Rumble 2001
« Reply #82 on: July 16, 2001, 05:58:00 PM »
Now now Hang...  :)

I don't think you can look at any one thing and point to a definitive reason for the outcome. Just a buncha small things that taken together spelled doom for the Axis this year. I couldn't assign any fault to Hristo's performance as CO from what I saw.

In fact, the one thing that struck me watching the two sides get organized is how simular they were. Both did as you say - assign flight leaders and delegate. Both delegated the rostering and plane selection, and both gave an overall tactical brief/s.

I don't think it *is* possible to look at this and completely negate the fact that yeah, the Axis side hadn't the squad cohesion that the Allies did. It was just an unfortunate reality for them. Some of the Axis flight leaders were very good, and some were rather less proactive/responsive. One of them *didn't even show up*.

But that's just the way it goes. The Rumble is just as much about what happens before the fight even starts as it is when the two sides meet in the air. And about playing the hand yer dealt. It *was* a tough one for Hristo this year, in my opinion. I think both of you guys did a remarkable job with what you had.

Offline Hangtime

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The top 10 reasons the allies won the Rumble 2001
« Reply #83 on: July 16, 2001, 06:40:00 PM »
Yeah.. yer right Nash. Thanks.  :)

Sorry Hristo.. just couldn't resist the boot plant in yer bellybutton tho.. from where I was sittin; looked to me like you had the cards; made the shuffle; cut 'em and dealt 'em... even got some signals that could be called cheatin (password) then griped because you didn't get the top hand... and blamed somebody else insteada takin responsibility.

We had to sideline pilots.. I was sidelined myself in first fight. I had to make cage lead changes too.. one of my crack pilots and a cage lead folded day before the Rumble, never spoke a word to his replacement till an hour before the fight.... thing is; we didn't let it faze us, and went in there lookin to win a fight. No alt monkeyin; no runnin around and round the cage refusing to engage.. they fought.

The pilot skill disparity to which you refer I ain't buying into.. pilots I saw in cage 4 were competent.. shesssh, I'm sorry, but I still think it's a crock... Superstars, yours or mine could not have won this.. teamwork could and did. I still think you let yer guys down; but in the intrest of good future relations I'll concede this..

Yer pilots won our respect.. and admiration. I sure don't blame them[/i] for the rout. Note that the 'limpwhistle' noises are gone..

I'll leave it upta the resta you to decide why the axis lost better than 2/1 against 'inferior' planes. (spit factor my ass! lol!)

Ready fer a rematch yet?? hehehhehheee

(passes the toejam-stirrin stick)
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Hangtime

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The top 10 reasons the allies won the Rumble 2001
« Reply #84 on: July 16, 2001, 06:43:00 PM »
LOL Sling.. yah.. but I followed creamer around. The minute I let him outta my sight; I got killed.  :)
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline eddiek

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The top 10 reasons the allies won the Rumble 2001
« Reply #85 on: July 16, 2001, 07:02:00 PM »
Nash,

Didn't Hristo make the flight assignments, just like Hangtime did?
If so, why did he not think to let the Assassins and other squads fly together?  Hblair and the rest of the squad are a pretty formidable force when they fly together......to neglect to assign them to a common cage so they could utilize the teamwork they have developed over time is Hristo's fault.......I know the 56th FG was spread out over 2 or 3 cages, they made the best of it, worked with what they had, and did their best.  
All I am seeing is excuses for losing.  Just once I would like to see "We lost because it was not our day," or "Great fight, Allies.  You deserved the win," or anything positive, without the "but we had (insert excuse/problem) to contend with."
"Spit factor", "jug D-11 shoud not have been there"......all excuses to make up for poor tactics, nothing else.

Offline Hangtime

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The top 10 reasons the allies won the Rumble 2001
« Reply #86 on: July 16, 2001, 07:16:00 PM »
Actually Eddick; he did congragulate us.. rather civilly too. Only thing that popped my cork was the dodge about his precious old squad that wasn't there... seemed to me like the guy had or has precious little confidence in or respect for the current group of AH LW pilots.. guys I fight against.. and lose to often enuff. They're plenty good; and I think they're gettin a sorry deal here. Not just now; but in the past too.. lotta "lufwhiner" handles were passed around undeservedly just cause they like flyin those ugly planes.

Mosta these guys are from the USA.. and just like flyin the LW planeset. I got this niggling little feeling tho... seems he's rather fond of the eastern bloc boys, and the resta of the guys flyin LW iron are imposters or somethin.  ;)

I'm the one bein the horses-ass here, just because I wanna dig the bastard a bit.. hell I had to wait a year.  :) Meanwhile, not fer nothin.. the LW pilots are ok in my book. Good fights, guys! <S!>
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline AKSWulfe

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The top 10 reasons the allies won the Rumble 2001
« Reply #87 on: July 16, 2001, 07:18:00 PM »
Simple reason Eddiek.

They can't admit to defeat at the hands of superior pilots (you said that yourself Hristo) and superior wing tactics.

If it's your ego at stake, an over-inflated ego at that, then excuses come faster than the gloating.

It's not like this is the last fight, there will be more. For sure I will be there. Next time I might be on the opposite side of the fence. It doesn't phase me, I flew this for fun. I had nothing to lose, nothing at stake, it was all about fun for me.
-SW

Offline hblair

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The top 10 reasons the allies won the Rumble 2001
« Reply #88 on: July 16, 2001, 07:29:00 PM »
Actually hristo said on country channel just after the debacle that you guys flew smarter and more organized than we did, and his hat was off to them. hristo has been pretty cool about it from what I have seen. He's a much better sport than you guys wanna give him credit for.

Offline Hangtime

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The top 10 reasons the allies won the Rumble 2001
« Reply #89 on: July 16, 2001, 07:40:00 PM »
Dammit; Hblair; stop confusing the issue with facts!! Jesus christo; I'm just gettin up to the part where I get him pissed of...

 :D

<S!> Hristo. My apologies. Nice fight.. you did well. Sorry yah got such a lousy pack of piss-poor psuedo luftwaffe pilots this time.. Yer right.. the old guys were better targets.

 ;)
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.