P-47's terribly wrong

[viking73]

HTC, you read anything on the P-47 11,25, 40 and they all say that they were very good at high altitude but would never dogfight at low or even medium altitudes. The reason being of course was it's weight and non-aerobatic capabilities. It was called "the jug" for good reasons.

However, in this game, it can turn, do aerobatics, and maneuver almost like a spit. Even flying them I shake my head at some of the stuff I can do as I shoot down other planes. I had to laugh when HTC promoted that video on their website "wings of prey" showing all the crazy moves that a jug couldn't do. Proof of how bad this game has gotten. AH2 has been slowly moving from a good flight sim to an arcade game and that video just proved it. So like the P-47's, many of the planes are not taught on how a plane really flies (which many real pilots know here) but teach what it does in this pinball machine game. Thinking about sending quarters as my payment from now on.

Also, having flown the F4U models from the beginning, since that was our main plane in the Marine Air Wing, have noticed a big change in it as well. It was a "hog" flying and modeled correctly. Even using flaps we didn't attempt what can be done today. So I guess many things have changed to attract and keep more customers. Maybe good business sense but unfortunate to see happen to what was a good flight sim.

 

[moot]

Anecdotes but no data

None of the P-47s are competitive with Spitfires of probably any mark as far as maneuverability goes.

[BnZs]

*yawn* Name the "crazy moves" that a Jug shouldn't be able to do.


Well, let me see, the sources say that the P-47 should be out-turned and out-climbed by 109s...and they are in AHII...badly.

Jugs roll well..this is right in line with their historical performance.

Jugs have a lousy sustained turn rate and nearly as lousy sustained turn radius. The only things Jugs do well slow is just kind of wallow along flying barely above stall..which they *did*.

The typical ACM used by a Jug ace in AHII is to use its roll rate and ability to dump energy in a hurry quickly to force an overshoot. This has nothing to do with turn rate, climb rate, or other performance metric where the Jug is inferior. The only way to argue against this is to suggest that Jugs should roll  poorly and retain energy well under Gs, which I don't think you can reasonably do.

HTC, you read anything on the P-47 11,25, 40 and they all say that they were very good at high altitude but would never dogfight at low or even medium altitudes. The reason being of course was it's weight and non-aerobatic capabilities. It was called "the jug" for good reasons. 

However, in this game, it can turn, do aerobatics, and maneuver almost like a spit.
 

Oh God, not this seriously flawed concept of flight physics again. 

14,000 pound Jug is too "heavy" to do aerobatics huh? By that logic the 36,000 pound F-18 used by Blue Angels must be way, way, way too heavy for aerobatics.

[mthrockmor]

I'm an above-average Spit 9 pilot. Meaning that most ofl the good ones will kill me in it but I'll feast on noobs. A few months back a P-47 raid went after some random base. I up in my lovely pink Spit 9 (offends people to get shot down by a pink spit) and end up fighting 4 Jugs on the deck. There were actually 7 or 8 jugs but the others were trying to get the town down. I end up killing three of the jugs before others show up and the fight is over.

If the 47 were even close to a Spit I would not have looked like a hero.

One of my squadies did find an original report from WW 2 that notes the P47 outrolled the Fw-190. I've read it and now wonder.

I don't know about modeling, what is correct or not. I enjoy this game though and happy for how it is structured.

Boo

[BnZs]

One of my squadies did find an original report from WW 2 that notes the P47 outrolled the Fw-190. I've read it and now wonder.

Boo

Bob Johnson talked about out-rolling 190s in his 47. Un-boosted ailerons being what they were, who could roll fastest between the two types probably depended on the pilot's upper body strength as much as anything else. Whatever the case, it is certain both planes were near tops in roll rate during WWII.

[321BAR]

HTC, you read anything on the P-47 11,25, 40 and they all say that they were very good at high altitude but would never dogfight at low or even medium altitudes. The reason being of course was it's weight and non-aerobatic capabilities. It was called "the jug" for good reasons.

what you most likely did was go against a good pilot that knew what to do to get you in his sights... I can out fly some spitfires in my 51 while in turn fights also if i have alot of alt to do it. Its hard to do but can be done. You just need to be in the same plane for months or even years before you get every inch of it down to do the near impossible.

All in all, none of the P47s can sustain a low speed turn or climb that the Spitfires can. But they can still kill the spits if flown correctly, if not absurdly against it.

[save]

No aircraft could outroll the fw190 A-series at normal combat speed , not even a spit16 

[bozon]

...
It was called "the jug" for good reasons.
...

An non of them had anything to do with its turn ability.

The rest is also wrong as other have already pointed out. The only thing I found "suspicious" is how flaps are modeled in AH, but no data exists to check against and the only thing that makes it "suspicious" is the small amount of anecdotal evidence for extensive use of them in combat.

[Chalenge]

LOL...

Ever take a 51 with 25 fuel and a drop tank to a field and run into a Spit 16 or Spit 9 with 100 fuel? Whats even funnier is when you are nearly 100 fuel and kill a 25 fuel "guru." Im sure he will be along shortly to call one of us "timid."  

[moot]

Who takes 25% in a spitfire...

[Chalenge]

Who takes 25% in a spitfire...

You need to spend some time in early and midwar arenas. 

[FLS]

There are certainly references to people saying that Jugs were too big and heavy to dogfight. Those statements were all made by people who never flew the P-47. I am not aware of any references stating the Jug could not do aerobatics. Even the Pilot handbook states that aerobatics are easy in the Jug and that the Jug, despite it's size and weight, is easy to fly and handles very well.

With regards to the F4U modeling, I'll assume that Viking73's opinion is on a par with his opinion of the P-47 modeling. Maybe he can post some data to back up his claims.

[EDO43]

Heh, heh....he must've been shot down by a jug while flying a spitfire.  LOL....the overconfidence and the underestimation of the abilities of a P-47.  I know the P-47 well enough that if she's low on fuel (less than 25%), I'll enter a turnfight with a spitfire.  If the spit driver's not paying attention or doesn't have his mojo, he's a smokin hole within a turn or two...if it goes further than that, I know I need to exit stage left or I'll be the smokin hole.  Hehe...know your aircraft and win some fights...know your opponent's and be undefeated (unless the horde comes to shoot you down )  Hmmm...Sun Tsu, doesn't seem to translate too well to the unfriendly skies of AH2

[Stoney]

D...A...T...A...

???

[caldera]

Of all the planes to whine about. 

If your Spitfire loses a turn fight to a Jug, the problem is your flying sucks.