P-47's terribly wrong

[Widewing]

No aircraft could outroll the fw190 A-series at normal combat speed , not even a spit16 

Define "normal combat speed"...

Several factors will determine the roll rate of any fighter. Two that can vary widely are speed and pilot strength.

Consider that most roll data is taken with a very specific stick force applied (most commonly, 50 lb). What happens when 100 lb is applied? How about 200 lb? Another thing usually overlooked is that the 190's roll rate drops off very quickly at high speed. NACA data shows that with 50 lb of stick force applied, the P-51B rolls faster than the 190 at all speeds above 360 mph indicated, being much faster at 380 mph indicated. Likewise, the P-47 rolls faster above 380 mph indicated. Bob Johnson was considered by his fellow 56th pilots to be one of the strongest pilots in the group. Now, factor in the brute upper body strength of someone like Johnson, and it is entirely plausible that he could roll his P-47 faster than a Fw 190.

[IrishOne]

Bob Johnson talked about out-rolling 190s in his 47. Un-boosted ailerons being what they were, who could roll fastest between the two types probably depended on the pilot's upper body strength as much as anything else. Whatever the case, it is certain both planes were near tops in roll rate during WWII.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/naca868-rollchart.jpg

[WWhiskey]

I just about exclusively fly the jugs, I love shooting down spits in it!
 If I am not in a Jug I am in an FM2
why would anyone want to fly spits all the time?  I can't stand them! seems like the higher the number of the spit, the lesser the ability of the pilot, or at least, the lesser his desire to master anything other than Easy kill!
Start in the D-11 and work your way up, land a few kills in each one, then maybe you will figure out, it isn't just the plane!

 

[killb8]

You suffer with dogma my friend. I like to up the p47d11 on fumes (25 to 50%) with a drop tank, six guns, and light ammo, just to find guys like you. The jug my have weighed twice as much but it also had twice the power. Consider also that there is a vertical component to combat performance.
Most people think the Brewster is also over modeled in AH but thats because we thought they sucked before the war. Later Finland got hold a few dozen and became the best air force of WW2 with a k/d ratio almost 9 to 1. Was Finland over modeled? Or do we suffer from our own preconceived notions?

[BnZs]

1. Was Finland over modeled?

Why, yes. Pilot skill, training, and commitment is what made the difference in that war.

[Scotty55OEFVet]

HTC, you read anything on the P-47 11,25, 40 and they all say that they were very good at high altitude but would never dogfight at low or even medium altitudes. The reason being of course was it's weight and non-aerobatic capabilities. It was called "the jug" for good reasons.

However, in this game, it can turn, do aerobatics, and maneuver almost like a spit. Even flying them I shake my head at some of the stuff I can do as I shoot down other planes. I had to laugh when HTC promoted that video on their website "wings of prey" showing all the crazy moves that a jug couldn't do. Proof of how bad this game has gotten. AH2 has been slowly moving from a good flight sim to an arcade game and that video just proved it. So like the P-47's, many of the planes are not taught on how a plane really flies (which many real pilots know here) but teach what it does in this pinball machine game. Thinking about sending quarters as my payment from now on.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...please, show me the JUG that can outfight a Spit...I would love to know how they do it. Unless ya stay fast and get in and out yer toast. Ask JUGgler (prob subject matter xpert on JUG in AH) how he does it and Ill gurantee ya that he may win somethin like that more often than some of us...but he would not agree with ya. <S>

[Debrody]

I met Latrobe yesterday. He was in a d40 jug, me in a g6. He could outscissor me. Was a nasty shock.
Just saying.

[viking73]

I only mentioned the Spit due to it's history of ability to turn fight. I fly all types of aircraft and the Spit is the least. Like I said, I know the Corsair from years of flying it almost exclusively in the MAW. It did not do what it does today.

Ok you wanted data. Here is performance info by the USAAF PROOF DEPARTMENT, TACTICAL COMBAT SECTION, ARMY AIR FORCES PROVING GROUND COMMAND, EGLIN FIELD, FLORIDA

FINAL REPORT ON TACTICAL SUITABILITY OF THE P-47C-1 TYPE AIRCRAFT
18 December 1942

(e)       In close fighting the P-47C-1, due to its faster aileron roll, can quickly reverse turn and break off the combat almost at will. However, due to the large turning circle and low rate of climb, it is deemed inadvisable to attempt to dog fight with any type of enemy fighter now used in the combat area.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47c-tactical-trials.html

[FLS]

Good thing we don't have the C model in Aces High.

[MarineUS]

Lepape must have gotten him

[mtnman]

I met Latrobe yesterday. He was in a d40 jug, me in a g6. He could outscissor me. Was a nasty shock.
Just saying.

The driving "decision-maker" in AH scissor encounters is not the plane.  It's the guys doing the scissors.

The fact that one of you was in a D40, while the other was in a G6 really means very little, if anything.

[Debrody]

The driving "decision-maker" in AH scissor encounters is not the plane.  It's the guys doing the scissors.

The fact that one of you was in a D40, while the other was in a G6 really means very little, if anything.

I know im a lame pilot, but could hold my own against muppets in 109 vs 109, so maybe i know how to scissor. I got him anyway, but when he forced me into a sustained scissor, he could slowly overtake me. Was a bit downhill, all flaps out, rudder kicked, throttle chopped. Jug is WAY better than most people think.

[Ardy123]

I know im a lame pilot, but could hold my own against muppets in 109 vs 109, so maybe i know how to scissor. I got him anyway, but when he forced me into a sustained scissor, he could slowly overtake me. Was a bit downhill, all flaps out, rudder kicked, throttle chopped. Jug is WAY better than most people think.

I agree, the notion that its all the pilot and not the plane is not valid. If you are fighting against a plane that is better at that kind of 'fight', then given roughly equal pilots, the plane is what makes the difference, not the pilot. And I can vouch for Debroedy, he's a good stick.

That being said, there are some excellent Jug pilots, and the D-11 isn't a bad plane at all. Most jugs, with their monster flaps, are not bad at dog fighting, its just that they are often leaded down with way, way, way, to much fuel.

[Stoney]

leaded down with way, way, way, to much fuel.

Or, as I contend, usually with too much ammo...

[mtnman]

I know im a lame pilot, but could hold my own against muppets in 109 vs 109, so maybe i know how to scissor. I got him anyway, but when he forced me into a sustained scissor, he could slowly overtake me. Was a bit downhill, all flaps out, rudder kicked, throttle chopped. Jug is WAY better than most people think.

It wasn't a comment on your skill level.  I don't remember ever bumping into you, so I wouldn't comment on your skill level.

It was a comment directed towards using a plane vs plane comparison, which is generally taken as if assuming both pilots are equal (which they seldom are).  I don't accept comments like "but could hold my own against <insert squad> in 109 vs 109, so..." as meaning much either.

Yes, the jug is a pretty dang good plane.  I used to fly it quite a bit.

When it comes to plane vs plane / pilot vs pilot not being valid, I can only speak from experience.  I seldom see pilots use their ride to their advantage, while I often see pilots use their ride to their opponents advantage.  I've worked with a large number of people in the TA, almost all of which "knew how to scissor".  Only a small minority could actually scissor well.  The vast majority could be out-scissored by technique, regardless of what they "should" have been able to do based on the ride they were in.

Really, that was one of the first things I learned when I started out as a trainer.  The vast majority of people who "want to learn to fly a <insert plane>" really just need work on technique.  Once you know the techniques, the actual plane choice means much less.  Once you know the technique, you can hop into almost anything and do pretty dang good.