P63

[Vinkman]

Uh, no. This is no case WHATSOEVER for adding the P-63 because it is NOT what is used as criteria for whether an aircraft is added. Because it cannot be conclusively and without argument proven that the P-63 meets HiTech's criteria there is no case AT ALL for adding the P-63. Unless HTC were to add a "What If?" arena, the P-63 is just another almost-made-it that may have a place in history, but has NO place in the game.

It meets the criteria. Squadren strength, shot down an enemy plane.

[Saxman]

It meets the criteria. Squadren strength, shot down an enemy plane.

Read Ack-Ack's post again, as that's the reference that is always brought up in these discussions:

There has been mention of one incident...

Mentioned by who? When? Was it an actual combat action report or was it an "I know a guy who knew a guy whose uncle's brother's second cousin's former roommate was there" account? NO ONE has been able to provide the primary source where this incident was originally mentioned and which Ack Ack's post references. This reference is nothing more than rumor and hearsay, and even ITSELF presents this story as being unconfirmed (why else does it say "there has been mention?" Why not a clear: The P-63 has been confirmed to have recorded one aerial victory?) so the burden of proof is NOT showing an aircraft didn't see combat.

As the saying goes: Pics or it didn't happen.

[Vinkman]

As the saying goes: Pics or it didn't happen.

 

[Ack-Ack]

shot down an enemy plane.

It did?  There is no official confirmation that a P-63 scored a victory during the war against either the Germans or the Japanese.  As I posted earlier in this thread.

Soviet Naval Aerial Kills in August 1945
by George Mellinger, Twin Cities Aero Historians

It seems the Soviets generally met little opposition in the air during their brief war against Japan in August 1945, Operation Autumn Storm, and suffered most of their losses to anti-aircraft fire and to non-combat causes. There has been mention of one incident when an Army pilot, Jr. Lt. Miroshnichenko, of the 17 IAP flying the P-63 Kingcobra shot down a Ki-43 or K-27 fighter, while operating on the Transbaikal Front out of Mongolia.. Undoubtedly at least a few other Soviet Army Air pilots managed to score air victories, but no details are known.

Unless there is an official confirmation of a kill, there will always be speculation as to whether or not the P-63 ever engaged another enemy plane in combat during the war.

ack-ack

[Vinkman]

It did?  There is no official confirmation that a P-63 scored a victory during the war against either the Germans or the Japanese.  As I posted earlier in this thread.

Unless there is an official confirmation of a kill, there will always be speculation as to whether or not the P-63 ever engaged another enemy plane in combat during the war.

ack-ack

Just curious, What official Russian records do we have?  If Pokryshkin's official memior shows official records of active plane strength on the eastern front, and those records show P-63 in service, in 1944-1945 will that count? maybe you could list what qualifies as a official record, signed by whom?

[Guppy35]

Vink, how much of a difference in performance do you think the 63 would have over the 39Q.    I don't think there is any doubt that the 63's achilles heel was the range problem.  It couldn't compete with the 51.  I remember Widewing talking about possible use on the Eastern Front.  At that same time, Kinda like wanting my Spitfire XII and needing it, the 63 is one for me that would be nice someday, but nowhere near a priority.  When I get that Cobra mood going, the 39s seem to fill the bill nicely

[Saxman]

Just curious, What official Russian records do we have?  If Pokryshkin's official memior shows official records of active plane strength on the eastern front, and those records show P-63 in service, in 1944-1945 will that count?

Only if those records show the P-63 in service and engaging enemy aircraft or surface targets. It doesn't matter if the thing was "in service" during the war years or not. If it didn't see combat, it's not in. Pretty clear and simple dividing line that's been established by HiTech.

[caldera]

Only if those records show the P-63 in service and engaging enemy aircraft or surface targets. It doesn't matter if the thing was "in service" during the war years or not. If it didn't see combat, it's not in. Pretty clear and simple dividing line that's been established by HiTech.

So we're taking the goon out? 

[Ack-Ack]

Only if those records show the P-63 in service and engaging enemy aircraft or surface targets. It doesn't matter if the thing was "in service" during the war years or not. If it didn't see combat, it's not in. Pretty clear and simple dividing line that's been established by HiTech.

I haven't been able to find anything that indicates the P-63 did see any enemy action of any type.  Only thing I've found makes it comparable to planes like the Tigercat or P-51H, in the area but nobody was home to play.

ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

So we're taking the goon out? 

The C-47 wasn't a combat aircraft.

ack-ack

[Saxman]

The C-47 wasn't a combat aircraft.

ack-ack

Also, C-47s nonetheless took ground fire and came under attack by enemy aircraft even if the crews didn't go LOOKING for a fight. That's a LOT more than can be said for the P-63.

[Ping]

The C-47 wasn't a combat aircraft.

ack-ack

Yet it also did see action with the enemy.

[Ack-Ack]

Yet it also did see action with the enemy.

Regardless if it saw any enemy action, it was not a combat plane. 

ack-ack

[Guppy35]

Regardless if it saw any enemy action, it was not a combat plane. 

ack-ack

Those Gooney drivers landing at Wau in the middle of a fight to drop troops and supplies would argue that

[Mystery]

Today we'll talk kill record:

"On 15 August Capt Vyacheslav Sirotin and his wingman Jr Lt I F Miroshnichenko, of 17 IAP were patrolling in their new P-63s. Sirotin was a veteran ace who had flown P-39s (amongst other fighter types) against the Germans and had scored 26 victories during more than 300 sorties, for which he received the HSU in 1945. His wingman appears to have been a novice, however. Spotting two specks at low level in the distance, they quickly identified two Japanese fighters - either Ki-43 "Oscars" or Ki-27 "Nates" - which were hoping to attack Soviet transport aircraft. The P-63 pilots instead made short work of the enemy aircraft, Sirotin allowing his wingman to make the kill. Miroshnichenko succeeded in shooting down one of the Japanese fighters, but the other machine escaped at treetop height.

During the brief war with Japan, the Pacific Ocean Fleet air units were also active, attacking enemy shipping and providing air cover and support for their own amphibious operations in the Sakhalin Islands. One of these units was 6 IAP-TOF (Pacific Ocean Fleet) which had just converted from I-16s to P-63's just prior to the declaration of war with Japan. Although details are scarce, Soviet sources report that two pilots from this regiment - V G Cherepnin and Lt Aleski Goltvenko - brought down aircraft by ramming them. Both men bailed out and were rescued, with Lt Goltvenko being awarded the HSU for his actions."

Poster's note: this tactic of ramming had a Russian name - Taran - since it was rather commonplace among Russian pilots

"Soviet Lend-Lease Fighter Aces of World War 2", George Mellinger, 2006 Osprey Publishing Limited