Spit 8 vs Ki

[MachFly]

The rapid fire guns on the Ki-84 would be close to ideal at removing them.

Ki-84
Ho-5 cannon: 450-600 RPM
Ho-103 machine gun: 400 RPM (has to fire through the prop)

Spitfire
Hispano: 700 RPM
Browning: 400-600RPM

Note: I took this off wikipedia, not 100% sure that this is accurate.



Try it in the game, take a spitfire and a ki-84, fire the guns, you can see that Spitfire's guns have a greater rate of fire.

[Karnak]

I have no idea where you got those rates of fire, but they are wildly off.

The Hispano II has a 600rpm rate of fire
The Browning .50 has about a 750rpm rate of fire.

The Ho-5 numbers you posted look like Type 99 Model II numbers, as on the N1K2-J and A6M5b.  The Ho-5s on the Ki-84 (and Ki-67) are the fastest firing 20mm cannons of WWII, having a rate of fire something like 750-850rpm.  Try it in AH, it fires MUCH faster than the Hispano,  To make it easy, take a Mosquito Mk VI with normal ammo load (150 rounds per gun) and see how long it takes to empty them compared to the Ki-84 and its 150 rounds per gun.

I don't know the Ho-103's rate of fire off hand, but in AH it will be 10% lower than uninterrupted.  Apparently, in reality Browning and guns developed from the Browning, such as the Ho-103, suffered more like a 40% loss of rate of fire from interrupter gears.

[MachFly]

I have no idea where you got those rates of fire, but they are wildly off.

Note: I took this off wikipedia, not 100% sure that this is accurate.

Your right.

Made a test in AH, timed how long would it take to empty the cannons on the Spitfire and Ki-84.

Spifire	240 rounds	11.3 seconds	636RPM
Ki-84	300 rounds	11.3 seconds	796RPM

Surprisingly both took exactly the same amount of time.

[Karnak]

The bottom line is that the Ki-84 and the Spitfire Mk VIII are both topline fighters that the significant majority of other fighters in the game will be engaging from a position of qualitative inferiority.

There are some fighters that are superior, but very few of those are not perked.

[moot]

Surprised it took so long for it to come up... What Karnak said:  the Ki 84's flaps are far better than the Spit's. No contest.  And the Spitfire's wings are definitely one of the most fragile in the game.  One of the things I like to do is to shoot them anytime a Spitfire is maneuvering hard at speed.  Unless I'm mistaken, the G load makes them even quicker to break.

I can't comment on the actual OP question.. I'd say the Ki 84's worse handling at high speed and the small speed margin where the flaps are about to come out are where the Spit VIII can make the most of the fight.  Before the flaps are out, the Ki 84 will IIRC handle markedly worse.

[Debrody]

Those two rides are pretty much equal in overall. The winner is that pilot who can force his planes optimal fighting style to the opponent. As long as the fight is at altitude, i would say the spit has more chance, more opportunity to fight his fight (downhill, awsome turn rate around 180-220), on the deck the ki has a little bit more chance (rolling scissors, world beating slow stall speed and low speed handling). But it depends more on the pilot than on the plane. Im speaking about a co-alt duel situation, when all two is trying to outturn the opponent. If one of them are arriving with altitude, the spit has more chance to finish the ki since the ki has problems above flap speeds, just at the speed zone the spit excels. Its easyer to bait and reverse in the spit than in the ki.

[waystin2]

The Spit 8 is my primary fighter.  I think Moot touched on the key to this matchup.  Speed has some bearing on outcome of fight.  If I run into a Ki-84 I try to keep the speed up at least 250-ish.  The more the fight slows down, the stronger the Ki gets.  Just been my experience.  Fight results are: when fast-Spit 8, when slow-Ki-84.  Of course there is the pilot factoring in there as well.

 

Way

[Krusty]

I disagree that the spit wings are that fragile. I've unloaded tons of 20mm rounds into them many times from Fw190s and other planes and had them keep going.

I think compared to tke Ki they SEEM more fragile, but this is because you're putting 2x or 3x the rounds on target in a single burst. Those fast guns on the Ki really make instant killshots on any ride (not just spits) if it passes through your pipper.

[Karnak]

I disagree that the spit wings are that fragile. I've unloaded tons of 20mm rounds into them many times from Fw190s and other planes and had them keep going.

I think compared to tke Ki they SEEM more fragile, but this is because you're putting 2x or 3x the rounds on target in a single burst. Those fast guns on the Ki really make instant killshots on any ride (not just spits) if it passes through your pipper.

It isn't the Ki-84 that kills Spit wings best, it is .50 cals.  Even a quad .50 cal aircraft easily amputates Spitfire wings.

I think you missed or hit with only the  7.92mm or 13mm guns when you claim to have hit Spitfires in the wings with "tons of 20mm rounds" and had them survive.

[Ardy123]

Spits don't regain their e as fast as ki84s... get em slow and work it.... you can get the spit 8.

[MachFly]

Spits don't regain their e as fast as ki84s... get em slow and work it.... you can get the spit 8.

I have to disagree with that, Spitfires are some of the fastest accelerating planes in AH.

The following test on acceleration was done at 65ft, from 150mph to 250mph with WEP and 50% fuel.
Ki-84: 21.2 Seconds
Spit8: 18.8 Seconds

Take a look at the following link, I know it is an old site but the performance for these two aircraft has not been changed.
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php (Click Spit8 and Ki-84 then submit)

[Ardy123]

I have to disagree with that, Spitfires are some of the fastest accelerating planes in AH.

The following test on acceleration was done at 65ft, from 150mph to 250mph with WEP and 50% fuel.
Ki-84: 21.2 Seconds
Spit8: 18.8 Seconds

Take a look at the following link, I know it is an old site but the performance for these two aircraft has not been changed.
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php (Click Spit8 and Ki-84 then submit)

hmm your right... Maybe its that most spit pilots only pull back as hard as they can instead of as hard as necessary. It just seems that in many encounters that last longer than several turns, they are low and slow and low on e.

[MachFly]

I think it's because most Ki84 pilots know what they are doing, most of the Spitfire pilots have no idea what they are doing.

[waystin2]

instead of as hard as necessary

Shhhh don't expose my Vampire secrets Ardy!

[Ardy123]

Shhhh don't expose my Vampire secrets Ardy!