FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)

[pervert]

How would it not be known?  It is self evident.  Same as the climb example I gave earlier with the P-51 and Spitfire.

Apparently not it would seem, I will try and get some MA time in and show you how it can be useful outnumbered in a FW190 D9

Pervert, I can't watch the film from work, how did you avoid the spit from getting its nose pointed in front of yours and firing off its guns to kill ya. I mean so you were turning at a faster speed but the spit doesn't need to turn going as fast, he just needs it get his nose pointed in front with enough deflection to pop off the shot.

This one I made up tonight for this thread, the answer to that is to stay out of effective guns range 800yds I find with this sort of turn more than effective even with 6-7 plus shooting. Should be really doing more filming I have been having a lot of success using this as a base in the last few months I am being ganged situations to drain planes of their E on the deck then baiting them for the shot and spiral/roll climbing popping a few on the way down and building my E advantage over them again.

This seems to work so well because the pursuing cons are all pulling lead and therefore burning more E, some of them even lose patience and try and cut across the circle and lose even more E for a short term speculative guns solution, they rejoin the circle and fall into a worse position than before.

The longer this goes on the worse it seems for the opponent and the harder they have to turn to keep in range, MA realistically the most turns I have ever had to make is 2 one is usually enough but it all depends on whats  joining the fight.

[pervert]

So you dove to the deck and used the speed from the dive and you're calling that a sustained turn? In other words you can't sustain a turn at 360mph IAS in a FW190D, as Stony already pointed out. You demonstrated that you have the speed to run away from a Spitfire as Karnak pointed out. You used your imagination and you imagined something.

I could repost a film starting from say 100 mph you will just have to watch for a hell of a lot longer to see it reach over 370 but it will eventually, think I made what 3 turns in that film at that speed? Considering it is 10 minutes long you couldn't hold on to that speed for that length of time in a turn.

I could simply get up to my top speed on the deck and do it all again, have you even watched the film btw? it sounds like you haven't.

[pervert]

Perv, I'm not going to flame you or Karnak. You're both talking past each other, using different currencies, as it were. However, I will submit to you the following fascinating tutorial on the E_M, as posted by The Godfather, Leon "BadBoy" Smith (or, as I say, Smiff). This will show you of what Karnak speaks. As for your assertions, I see no untruth to them - true enough, at certain speeds, the F-dub has a sustained turn capability the Spitty can't match - because it can't fly at those speeds.
It's a pretty dense two pages, not expecially heavy on the maths, but is invaluable... Read and be amazed at what Da Godfatha is putting down.
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_011a.html

Is this wormzilla btw? I'm frankly quite surprised at all these respectable figures ganging up on poor pervert here  its like the MA all over again. I think I would punch myself in the face if I got to heavily into all this FM stuff, I go by what I can and cannot do in a plane then find away around what I cannot do. Will have a read at that might already have done so.

[FLS]

I saw the film. You pulled 1 to 1.5 G to keep the drag down and you still were losing speed throughout the first turn when you weren't slowly descending. You demonstrated that you're faster than a Spitfire. You did not demonstrate that you were matching a Spitfire's sustained turn rate which was your assertion.

The fact that you can rope people in a turn does not prove your claim that a 190D can sustain a turn with a Spitfire. Any aircraft can turn poorly when it's turned too hard. That says nothing about the actual relative turning ability between two aircraft.

You did stay above 360 though, I'll grant you that.  

You aren't being ganged up on, the point is that certain terms have specific meanings and it can be confusing for people when those terms are used creatively.

[pervert]

I saw the film. You pulled 1 to 1.5 G to keep the drag down and you still were losing speed throughout the first turn when you weren't slowly descending. You demonstrated that you're faster than a Spitfire. You did not demonstrate that you were matching a Spitfire's sustained turn rate which was your assertion.

The fact that you can rope people in a turn does not prove your claim that a 190D can sustain a turn with a Spitfire. Any aircraft can turn poorly when it's turned too hard. That says nothing about the actual relative turning ability between two aircraft.

You did stay above 360 though, I'll grant you that.  

You aren't being ganged up on, the point is that certain terms have specific meanings and it can be confusing for people when those terms are used creatively.

Actually I wasn't pulling at all really I will post another film tomorrow starting from say 100 mph and repeat it closer to the ground, although altitude I believe in the first film is not a factor to my speed throughout the turn.

[Karnak]

Apparently not it would seem, I will try and get some MA time in and show you how it can be useful outnumbered in a FW190 D9

There is no need to show me anything.  It is a tactic I have used many times in faster aircraft.

However, I would never conflate it to mean I was out turning anything. When using this tactic you are out running somebody.

[FLS]

Actually I wasn't pulling at all really I will post another film tomorrow starting from say 100 mph and repeat it closer to the ground, although altitude I believe in the first film is not a factor to my speed throughout the turn.

Pulling or trimmed it's all the same AoA. You can actually pull about 1.8 G in the 190D and still sustain 360 mph and you'll see a much higher turn rate and still outrun a Spitfire. I was off on the speed before because I was thinking of the 190A8. My bad. It doesn't change the fact that you aren't demonstrating  " A FW190-D can equal a continuous turn on the deck with a Spitfire! that is a fact".  Any two aircraft at the same speed and G load will turn at the same rate and radius. But in a sustained turn where you are trying to out turn each other the Spitfire has a higher max turn rate because it has more available G at any given speed up to corner speed.

[pervert]

There is no need to show me anything.  It is a tactic I have used many times in faster aircraft.

However, I would never conflate it to mean I was out turning anything. When using this tactic you are out running somebody.

I never said it out turned the spit, you keep adding that bit in. Are you having problems reading what I type?

[pervert]

Is this

A FW190-D can equal a continuous turn on the deck with a Spitfire! that is a fact".

Not another way to word this?

Any two aircraft at the same speed and G load will turn at the same rate and radius.

The reason you still think this is still wrong is because you believe that you cannot sustain the speed I have proved you can in the film. Not only did I demonstrate it you just used

Any two aircraft at the same speed and G load will turn at the same rate and radius.

to dismiss

A FW190-D can equal a continuous turn on the deck with a Spitfire! that is a fact".

they are pretty much the same thing

But in a sustained turn where you are trying to out turn each other the Spitfire has a higher max turn rate because it has more available G at any given speed up to corner speed.

Yeah I already knew that, your trying to prove something based on an assumption that is not mentioned in my original statement.

[PJ_Godzilla]

No, Perv, it's not wormzilla. I'm a far less respectable figure of about 2 years experience (I struggle to maintain 1:1 in my G-14) - but I am credentialed and the reason you need to look at the E-Ms, and why Karnak and FLS could use to as well, is the key word MAX.

See, FLS in his last statement said "No way you can match the max turn rate on a Spitty in a 190D-9. " This is absolutely true. However, if you look at this plot: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,310017.msg4023999.html#msg4023999 and consider the example of the Hurri 1 and the 109E, you will see that, at 275mph, the 109 can do about 10 dps and the Hurri can't do anything - it's out of speed at the diagram alt. Even at 250 mph, the 109E can outturn - sustained, the Hurri 1. This is a bit of a counterintuitive result but lies at the heart of past USAF tactics - is, indeed, what the nation that produces poor angle fighters but great energy fighters (at least in past) has deployed.

I'm not a part of any gang that includes you or those two. I don't like turns in the barrel. I'm just a shining crusader for truth and enlightenment.  

What I'd like to see right now is an appearance by Badboy with a comparative E-M for the D-9 and Spitty 9.

[pervert]

No, Perv, it's not wormzilla. I'm a far less respectable figure of about 2 years experience (I struggle to maintain 1:1 in my G-14) - but I am credentialed and the reason you need to look at the E-Ms, and why Karnak and FLS could use to as well, is the key word MAX.

See, FLS in his last statement said "No way you can match the max turn rate on a Spitty in a 190D-9. " This is absolutely true. However, if you look at this plot: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,310017.msg4023999.html#msg4023999 and consider the example of the Hurri 1 and the 109E, you will see that, at 275mph, the 109 can do about 10 dps and the Hurri can't do anything - it's out of speed at the diagram alt. Even at 250 mph, the 109E can outturn - sustained, the Hurri 1. This is a bit of a counterintuitive result but lies at the heart of past USAF tactics - is, indeed, what the nation that produces poor angle fighters but great energy fighters (at least in past) has deployed.

I'm not a part of any gang that includes you or those two. I don't like turns in the barrel. I'm just a shining crusader for truth and enlightenment.  

What I'd like to see right now is an appearance by Badboy with a comparative E-M for the D-9 and Spitty 9.

I'll have to read it tomorrow matey I have a 12 hour shift in 6 hours and need some sleep will continue tomorrow, wouldn't take the gang thing to seriously  too many zillas round these days in my day there was only 1 godzilla! and he wore a rubber suit 

[FLS]

Yeah I already knew that, your trying to prove something based on an assumption that is not mentioned in my original statement.

Well if that's all you meant to say you are correct. A Spitfire pilot can choose to let a FW190 match his turn rate.  

[FLS]

What I'd like to see right now is an appearance by Badboy with a comparative E-M for the D-9 and Spitty 9.

This is a Spit 5 vs a 190A5 but I think it will make your point PJ.

[PJ_Godzilla]

Thanks, FLS. We can see, in the case of the A5 and Spitty 5, that, yes indeed, the a-5 can beat the Spitty 5 sustained turn rate between 250 and the Spitty's max.

In terms of max sustained, though, it's all Spitty - and at a much lower speed.

[FLS]

See, FLS in his last statement said "No way you can match the max turn rate on a Spitty in a 190D-9. " This is absolutely true. However, if you look at this plot: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,310017.msg4023999.html#msg4023999 and consider the example of the Hurri 1 and the 109E, you will see that, at 275mph, the 109 can do about 10 dps and the Hurri can't do anything - it's out of speed at the diagram alt. Even at 250 mph, the 109E can outturn - sustained, the Hurri 1. This is a bit of a counterintuitive result but lies at the heart of past USAF tactics - is, indeed, what the nation that produces poor angle fighters but great energy fighters (at least in past) has deployed.

You can't really say that the Hurri can't do anything at it's top speed of 260 if the 109 is going 275. The Hurri can easily pull 2.2G and slow down to 245 and maintain 10 dps with a smaller radius than the 109 making 7 dps at 275 or 10 dps at 260.

Thanks, FLS. We can see, in the case of the A5 and Spitty 5, that, yes indeed, the a-5 can beat the Spitty 5 sustained turn rate between 250 and the Spitty's max.

In terms of max sustained, though, it's all Spitty - and at a much lower speed.

We see this differently. The Spitfire can pull 6G at 250 and maintain 6G until it hits 200 where it can sustain a 3G turn at 18 dps. Even though it ends up slower it still has a higher sustained rate and smaller radius than the 190 at any turn rate the 190 can sustain. The 190 loses the 6G ability at 250 and can only sustain 18 dps at 160 mph. Above 250 the Spitfire still has the choice of letting the 190 match or exceed it's turn rate but it always has the option of out turning the 190 by pulling harder up to 6G or slowing down