Author Topic: the farce has lasted long enough...  (Read 6658 times)

Offline BnZs

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Re: the farce has lasted long enough...
« Reply #75 on: April 29, 2011, 09:08:34 PM »
in al honesty i seriously considered that...except for the 262's. of course this was a while back.

Sure, probably ought to leave 262s and 163s out...I don't think its  bad idea.

But don't fool yourself...I doubt any opposition to perking the Spit16 here has all that much to do with anyone crying their eyes out for the plight of the poor noobs. :devil
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline MaSonZ

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Re: the farce has lasted long enough...
« Reply #76 on: April 29, 2011, 09:18:38 PM »
Sure, probably ought to leave 262s and 163s out...I don't think its  bad idea.

But don't fool yourself...I doubt any opposition to perking the Spit16 here has all that much to do with anyone crying their eyes out for the plight of the poor noobs. :devil
true.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: the farce has lasted long enough...
« Reply #77 on: April 29, 2011, 09:55:03 PM »
So in your opinion, gameplay is better (fairer? more fun? I don't if we have a consistent definition here either) in a situation where one aircraft has every single advantage except possibly pilotage, than in a situation one plane is inferior in one two areas (say turn and climb) but has the option of using its superior speed to disengage?

I can only say our definitions of what constitutes fun and balanced gameplay are very different.

Oh, and Spixteens CAN run from your P-38G without too much trouble. I have seen PLENTY of Spixteens running in the MA.

My point is, it's not invincible, but the Spit 16 drivers think they are, and tend to stick around and fight.

Look at your Sig.  You are asking for a Meteor for heavens sake.  If you are worried about 16s, why ask for something like that?  Keep in mind the XVI we have is the same as a Spitfire LFIX.  We need to perk the IX and VIII in game too then?  Who cares.  Shoot em! :)
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Offline Noir

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Re: the farce has lasted long enough...
« Reply #78 on: April 30, 2011, 05:14:36 AM »

Look at your Sig.  You are asking for a Meteor for heavens sake.  If you are worried about 16s, why ask for something like that?  Keep in mind the XVI we have is the same as a Spitfire LFIX.  We need to perk the IX and VIII in game too then?  Who cares.  Shoot em! :)

Erm its me, and of course it would be perked.
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Offline Noir

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Re: the farce has lasted long enough...
« Reply #79 on: April 30, 2011, 05:25:54 AM »
BnZ when you drop by Paris, let me buy you a couple Beers  :cheers:

1 perk point is not much, noobs will have the satisfaction to get a perk ride that they understand...unlike the spit14  :t

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Offline BnZs

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Re: the farce has lasted long enough...
« Reply #80 on: April 30, 2011, 09:28:44 AM »
My point is, it's not invincible, but the Spit 16 drivers think they are, and tend to stick around and fight.

Well, every plane in the game can be shot down, but you people always say "The Spit16 is not so good", then fail to name a single weakness of the airframe that can be exploited by most other rides in the game in a dogfight. And your "Spits stick around and fight" idea is also hogwash. You see them run all the time. Default response after figuring out an FM2 can turn with them seems to be running away, often turning into the run/ho routine. Hell, with their acceleration, they can open up a gap and create a long, long, chase for a P-51 before that plane's top speed takes over...and I've seen plenty of them do it.

Look at your Sig.  You are asking for a Meteor for heavens sake.  If you are worried about 16s, why ask for something like that?  Keep in mind the XVI we have is the same as a Spitfire LFIX.  We need to perk the IX and VIII in game too then?  Who cares.  Shoot em! :)

Uh, I thought my sig was quoting a funny line from "BlackAdder", spoken by the guy who now plays Dr. House.... :D

Gupp...we've had this discussion before. If you imply one more time that I am so shallow-minded that the designation number of the a/c is what has me concerned, I might just have to have my seconds call upon your seconds. ;) The IX is slow and not a great climber by LW MA standards, both lack the XVI's fabulous roll rate, the VIII especially is in fact somewhat piggish in that regard at high speeds, all things which you KNOW but choose to be coy about.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline guncrasher

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Re: the farce has lasted long enough...
« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2011, 03:07:30 PM »
Well, every plane in the game can be shot down, but you people always say "The Spit16 is not so good", then fail to name a single weakness of the airframe that can be exploited by most other rides in the game in a dogfight. And your "Spits stick around and fight" idea is also hogwash. You see them run all the time. Default response after figuring out an FM2 can turn with them seems to be running away, often turning into the run/ho routine. Hell, with their acceleration, they can open up a gap and create a long, long, chase for a P-51 before that plane's top speed takes over...and I've seen plenty of them do it.



that's because you fail to recognize any we suggest.  If we say, players cant turn them as well as you think, you wont accept it.  I can outturn the majority of them in my ponyd at low speed, but that's not good enough for you.  having a spit16 doesnt automatically make you the best pilot in the game.  It is just like any other airplane, people only fly it because they think it's cool to do so.  so unless you post some information that the spit16 somehow enhances our own suckiness then you might find some more support.

I have flown spits since I started playing, I am the captain of the spitdweeb team.  I can tell you that if you want to perk any, it would be the spit8.  and that's the one I fly most of the time.  It is the best of the spits.

semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: the farce has lasted long enough...
« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2011, 03:20:46 PM »
in a dogfight

see this is the problem - the perked planes are flying in the MA under normal MA usage, not just in the context of an uniterrupted 1v1.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: the farce has lasted long enough...
« Reply #83 on: April 30, 2011, 03:56:17 PM »
that's because you fail to recognize any we suggest.  If we say, players cant turn them as well as you think, you wont accept it.  I can outturn the majority of them in my ponyd at low speed, but that's not good enough for you.  

semp

No, you can not. The P-51D, as modeled in the game, is physically incapable of sustaining as quick a turn rate or as tight a radius as the SpitXVI can. The only way in which the P-51 is capable of out-turning a Spit16 is if they are both above corner speed and g-limited rather than lift limited,  and the P-51D decelerates more precipitously to its corner velocity. This presumes heavily upon the incomptetence of the Spit driver and is at best a short-lived advantage in any case.

You are (quite willfully, I believe) trying to muddy the issue of hard-wired plane performance with the random factor of pilot skill.

I have probably gotten in more honest-to-God, 1v1 maneuvering fights with Spits and other "turn" aircraft while flying a P-51, P-47, or Fw-190 variant than almost anyone else posting in this discussion.

The other day I engaged a Seafire, who proceeded to go into a series of reversing turns as a defense-an attempt at scissors I suppose. I got off the throttle, put out some flaps, and simply shot him every time he crossed in front of my P-51's nose. If he had performed a rolling scissors instead, I would not have been able to follow. If he had simply slowed his own plane down to minimum speed in the scissors (much lower than that of my plane), I probably could not have stayed in trail. If he simply had sustained a turn in either direction, my nose would have been stuck in lag. It would be innacurate to say this player made gross mistakes-he was competely unaware of the fundamental techniques a dogfighter can make use of, and/or completely ignorant of the relative abilities of his plane and mine. I am NOT insulting whoever it was; Quite probably he has less total time in game than I log in an average week. This is the sort of encounter that leads to entirely specious claims from chest-thumpers about "out-turning" Spits with P-51Ds. This level of incompetence, however, is actually rare, and I expect this player will be quite dangerous in a Spit variant inside of a month's time.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 04:08:24 PM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline BnZs

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Re: the farce has lasted long enough...
« Reply #84 on: April 30, 2011, 04:01:53 PM »
see this is the problem - the perked planes are flying in the MA under normal MA usage, not just in the context of an uniterrupted 1v1.

"Dogfight" can imply a multi-plane dustup, and that is exactly what I mean here. There are planes which are as good or even better than the SpitXVI in a 1v1. The SpitVIII for instance-so many crow about this plane being "superior" because it has a marginally better sustained turn rate than its clipped-wing stablemate. Yet, outside of the context of a co-alt, co-e, 1v1 "Spitfight", against multiple bandits of different types, the XVI's fabulous roll rate, which gives it the ability to flick and flop out of gun solutions defensively and follow anything offensively, is far more important.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline guncrasher

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Re: the farce has lasted long enough...
« Reply #85 on: April 30, 2011, 04:35:18 PM »
see this video about things that cannot be done with an airplane. 

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,311571.0.html

semp



you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline Krusty

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Re: the farce has lasted long enough...
« Reply #86 on: April 30, 2011, 05:52:37 PM »
That video pre-supposes flaws in the flight model physics more than "pilot skill makes bad performers suddenly into good ones"

A good pilot in a 262 still isn't going to flat turn any better against a a6m2, is what he's saying there, gun.

Offline Slade

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Re: the farce has lasted long enough...
« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2011, 06:01:04 PM »
+1
-- Flying as X15 --

Offline guncrasher

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Re: the farce has lasted long enough...
« Reply #88 on: April 30, 2011, 06:06:55 PM »
what he's saying is that a spit16 will somehow lift the average player's skill.  I have fought many spit16s and most are not flown based on other than the resumption that since it's a 16 that it's better than the other spits.  I still say i will outturn the average spit16 in my ponyd.  there are other airplanes that perform the same maneuvers and have the same characteristics as the spit16. the yak, la7 and the c205 and yet no calls to perk them.

semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline hitech

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Re: the farce has lasted long enough...
« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2011, 07:24:41 PM »
see this video about things that cannot be done with an airplane.  

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,311571.0.html

semp



I do not see anything in that video that is anyway strange. I have done versions of every maneuver in that film in real planes. What you are not seeing in that film is how many times the maneuvers ended very differently.

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