New Mossie VI vs 110G2

[icepac]

I only do ground attack when coming down from long bomber interception mission in the 110........maybe twice since I have been here but I will engage any fighter seen when letting down to land.

As far as mossie, I got into a long turn fight with one and the 110 was better but it is possible he had nearly full tanks to my nearly empty tanks when we met at 20k feet.

[mechanic]

What makes the 110 worthy of a 10 ENY rating, when the 30 ENY Mossie is better in almost every way?  Its faster, dives better, rolls better, zooms better, 4 deadly cannon that is the easiest to use gun package in the game (and 4 mg's with tons of ammo)
 

I agree, the difference in ENY seems too great but I disagree about the gun package being the easiest to use in the game. The 110 has equaly over-the-nose view available as the mosquito for a start. It also has 20mm and 30mm guns making it deadly at long and short range. At close range the mosquito can suffer in snapshots that do not disable anything vital, while a close range snapshot for the 30mm is ideal. Yep, mosquito with the hispano are extreme weapons and easy to use, but NOT the easiest.

 Something like an F4u, or P47 has a far easier gun package to use. Point and squirt anywhere up to 1.1k with those banks of .50s. Any of the quad-20mm cannon planes are comparable, with most of them having the advantage of being a much smaller and more nimble aircraft than the mosquito.

That is the main reason for the mosquito to be high ENY. Change of survival is low. In the 110 it is also low, I acknowledge.

[BnZs]

I didn't say it was overshadowed or sucked. I say it is no worse and no better than similar LW rides. For every edge the P-51 has compared to them, it has a flaw. The ENY numbers do not reflect this sameness-5 ENY says the machine is uber enough to be a marginally perkable plane, which it ain't by a longshot.

Oh, and don't say "bomb truck" to me. First of all, I do not care. I have not strapped a bomb to a P51 or any fighter in recent memory, nor will I. I would rejoice if Hitech allowed me to strip the racks from my P-51 for 25 perks a ride and gain 5 mph. I would sign away my right to ever carry ord on a plane again for a half-price tour. I am sure I speak for a great number of pilots when I say I play this game to fly fighters against fighters 99% of the time. They deserve representation.

Much more importantly, the Typhoon at least is used as a mud mover and town destroyer on as great a percentage of its sorties as the Pony, if not greater, yet its k/d stays right up there.

The Dora also flies a surprising number of de-acking runs, cutting into its pristine k/d.

BTW, I purposely left the P-47M and Ta-152 out of this.

My only "agenda" is poking holes in inconsistent or hypocritical crap. Yes, right now the P-51D is my primary land plane. But we've had this argument for years, during previous periods where my primary ride was 190s or Jugs, planes whose major natural *enemy* in the MA is the P-51. The truth is the P-51D does not stick out from the LW pack in any respect except popularity. If ENY is going to be about popularity, let us admit it. I don't agree with such a policy, but I would at least like to see it openly admitted.

Not superior in performance. Not superior scoring machine, as is evidenced by k/d numbers. Not a superior dogfighter compared to the 1A or La7, and the point is debatable when compared to the Jugs. What is left to account for an ENY of 5 besides popularity?
 

Or, BnZs, you can just hand wave away all of the strengths of the P-51D and pretend it totally sucks to try to sell your agenda.

Oh wait, that is exactly what you did.

The P-51D is one of the best tools in the game for taking territory.  It is fast, carries a lot of ordnance, has long endurance, has guns that are easy to hit with, handles very smoothly at speed and has great cockpit views.

That isn't to say that the aircraft you listed don't also have nice capabilities as well, but to pretend the P-51D is completely overshadowed is silly.  As a package deal it is very good.

[bozon]

Regarding ENY I think that it matters if the aircraft has alternative models: P-51D has high ENY B model. 110G has the C. LA7 has LA5 etc.
The mossie VI does not have the mossie II earlier fighter-bomber model. The bomber mossie cannot serve as an alternative to the VI as it is unarmed and perked.

[Karnak]

BnZs,

The fact that you don't care about bombs and rockets is precisely meaningless in this discussion, you are not the center of the universe.  Any discussion of ENY must include all aspects of performance and capability.  While I definitely agree that the P-51D gets additional use just because it is the P-51D, that alone cannot explain nearly twice the usage of of the runner up Spitfire Mk XVI, which also benefits from being a Spitfire like the P-51 benefits from being a Mustang.  As an all around package the P-51D is very good and very effective in the game, to argue otherwise is absurd.

P-51D vs:

Typhoon: More ordnance, more maneuverable, more endurance, less firepower, slightly less acceleration
La-7: Much more ordnance, much greater range, easier to use guns, slower, less maneuverable, much less acceleration, less firepower
Fw190D-9: More ordnance, greater range, easier to use guns, more maneuverable, slower, less acceleration, slightly less firepower
Bf109K-4: More ordnance, greater range, much easier to use guns, better views, slower, much less acceleration, slightly less maneuverable, less firepower
F4U-1D: More range, better views, slightly better acceleration (if I recall correctly), faster, less maneuverable, not CV capable.


Yes, against them the P-51D has flaws, but the reverse is also true, against the P-51D they all have flaws as well.

[Karnak]

I only do ground attack when coming down from long bomber interception mission in the 110........maybe twice since I have been here but I will engage any fighter seen when letting down to land.

As far as mossie, I got into a long turn fight with one and the 110 was better but it is possible he had nearly full tanks to my nearly empty tanks when we met at 20k feet.

I believe the Bf110G-2 will out turn the Mosquito Mk VI.  That is its only performance advantage until you get higher, then the Bf110G-2 will also out accelerate the Mosquito Mk VI.

Regarding ENY I think that it matters if the aircraft has alternative models: P-51D has high ENY B model. 110G has the C. LA7 has LA5 etc.
The mossie VI does not have the mossie II earlier fighter-bomber model. The bomber mossie cannot serve as an alternative to the VI as it is unarmed and perked.

One note, the Mk II was not a fighter-bomber.  It did not have a bomb bay and I am not sure it could even take bombs under the wings.  I had the older wing that had not been strengthened. When you see the Mosquito Mk II listed it is as a F.Mk II or NF.Mk II.

[bozon]

True Karnak, but I always thought that F.II had the same bomb bay as the VI. The cannons block the front of it, but with the short fins bombs, two could be stored in the back. It is always the FB.VI that is mentioned in that regard so I do not know if F.II could/did carry them too. For the missions it was doing at the time the F.II didn't need bombs.

[SmokinLoon]

Remember, the ENY was assigned PRIOR to the model update.    

With that being said, somewhere I have it drawn out just how much damage each can do and the 110G-2 can deliver over 7000 lbs of damage while the Mossi Mk VI is barely above 5000.  When the 110G-2 takes 2/500kg bombs, 4/50kg bombs, the quad 20mm and dual 30mm the amount of damage is truly impressive.

The Mossi is faster, climbs better, turns better, accels better, etc, etc, but imo, when comparing these 2 aircraft you need to compare what their role is: and that is hammering ground targets.  Vs OBJ the 110 wins, vs gv's the Mossi wins.

When HTC evaluates the ENY scores count on the Mossi FB Mk IV getting at least a 25 and maybe even a 20.  Roll the dice. 

[Lusche]

Remember, the ENY was assigned PRIOR to the model update. 

The current value of 30 was assigned some time after the model update, it had been 25 before.

[BnZs]

.  While I definitely agree that the P-51D gets additional use just because it is the P-51D, that alone cannot explain nearly twice the usage of of the runner up Spitfire Mk XVI, which also benefits from being a Spitfire like the P-51 benefits from being a Mustang.

I think it pretty much does. I think the glowing review written by Soda years ago when game conditions were different also has something to do with it.

There are not as many Spitfire worshippers as Mustang worshippers. The Millitary Channel does not declare the Spitfire the "Best plane of WWII" every other day, and Britain is a slightly less populous country than the United States.

Furthermore, the SpitXVI's usage is hurt by two very good contenders in its own family-The SpitVIII and the SpitIX.  The only alternative to the P-51D is the B, whose four .50 cals just aren't very effective in most people's hands. Just look at Lusches stats page by airframe family:



Spits are used as much as all the P-51s and all the P-47s *combined*!

If the Spit family were similarly limited, to the XVI and the V say, you could watch SpitXVI usage meet or exceed that of the P-51D.

I never once said the P-51D was a bad airplane in the MA. What I said was the performance and k/d numbers don't bear out the idea that it is superior to other LWMA planes in its class, yet it is currently one of only two unperked planes carrying an ENY 5.

 As an all around package the P-51D is very good and very effective in the game, to argue otherwise is absurd.

P-51D vs:

Typhoon: More ordnance, more maneuverable, more endurance, less firepower, slightly less acceleration
La-7: Much more ordnance, much greater range, easier to use guns, slower, less maneuverable, much less acceleration, less firepower
Fw190D-9: More ordnance, greater range, easier to use guns, more maneuverable, slower, less acceleration, slightly less firepower
Bf109K-4: More ordnance, greater range, much easier to use guns, better views, slower, much less acceleration, slightly less maneuverable, less firepower
F4U-1D: More range, better views, slightly better acceleration (if I recall correctly), faster, less maneuverable, not CV capable.


Yes, against them the P-51D has flaws, but the reverse is also true, against the P-51D they all have flaws as well.

[Debrody]

   The mossie can do 355mph on the deck: same as the b-stang, la-5, f4u1 series, 109g14. Pretty dang fast! If it has a little alt advantage at the start, it will take forever to catch it even in an La7. Which rides are faster than the mossie (on the deck)? 190d and 152 (the mossie easily outturns them), typhoon, p51d, M-jug (pretty much the same tale), the only real dangerous rides are the la7 and the 109K, plus the spit14, the 4-hog and the temp, but they are perked. Its gun package is all about your taste, for me the hispanos are easyer to aim than the taters. Trur, the tater is one-ping-one-kill-no-luck-just-skill, but a 0.5 secs burst can still kill anything with those quad hizookas. In my opinion its 30 ENY is the same joke as the k-4s 20.
   The 110 only can do 322mph. Almost everyone can catch it. Its rear gun is worthless, but its a real good turner s long as it has speed to burn. Its gun package is insane, one ping will kill anything, and has a chitload of ammunition. It cant carry as much bombload, but has air to air rockets, what is soo effective against bomber formations.
   IMO they should have the same eny value whatever it would be. They all have advantages and disadvantages against each other, mostly depends on the role and the pilot what will be more successfun. But its much easyer to survive in the mossie.

[SmokinLoon]

The current value of 30 was assigned some time after the model update, it had been 25 before.

Go double check the date of when 30 was assigned.  I'll bet ya it was PRIOR to the new model being implemented.  It wasnt too long before, but I am quite positive the update happened AFTER the 30 ENY was assigned.

EDIT: Version 2.19 is when the Mossi FB Mk IV was updated.  There is a gap between the archives and what we can access on the main page.  However, I do remember reading in the changelog when the ENY was adjusted.  Based on that, I'd likbwhat we are ae to believe that the ENY adjustement happened PRIOR to the model update.  Want to place any bets???    

[STEELE]

Very cool chart, Lusche.  I think if you did one for 2011 the La would have a much bigger piece of the pie.  The old mossie was for sure a 30 ENY job, the new one is probably 20
at worst. The p51D should be same as p47m ENY IMO.
 Yes the 110g heavy gun package can bust buildings faster than any other, but with the small gun package it should be 20 ENY, and when ENY goes above 10, maybe disable the
town hording gun pack. Or split the difference and make it 15? 

[Karnak]

The Mossie VI's usage barely budged when it was redone, despite gaining considerably in capability.

Splitting the ENY for gun packages would be nice and could be applied elsewhere as well, but I don't know that the game is currently capable of doing that.  Interfacewise it might be a bit confusing as well.

BnZs,

Your graph is out of date.  Last tour the P-51D got 28,893 kills, the Spitfire Mk XVI got 15,573 kills.  All P-51s got 32,587 kills, all Spitfires, Seafire included, got 35,195 kills.  The ratio has been moving steadily towards the P-51's favor for some time and I don't think that movement is without reason.

[SmokinLoon]

THe ENY debate will forever rage, no doubt.  Until players can look at the BIG picture of an aircraft they wont understand why it has the ENY value it does.

The P51D is one of the most capable aircraft in the game.  It is one of the fastest at all alts; it can turn (w flaps); has vrey capable firepower; can carry 2/1k bombs and 6/5in rockets (almost 3k worth of ord!); can roll well at all alts and speeds; and is very stable, etc.

Take all of the aircraft with a 10 ENY and higher, the only one that can do it all is the P51D.