Author Topic: P-38 turnfight  (Read 7237 times)

Offline WING47

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 127
P-38 turnfight
« on: May 22, 2011, 10:52:56 AM »
     I know many of my posts have been about the 51, however I have some interesting info about the P-38. First off, late model 38s had something called hydraulically boosted controls, which gave them the edge in high and medium speeds against just about everything, even the spitfire. So it really frustrates me to see 38 pilots having to complain about spixteens all the time. I flew with the 86th Adromini a while back so I know what their talking about. The 38 should, at least in my opinion, be a much more dangerous warbird. However no all P-38s had this, early models COULD NOT TURN according to actual WWII vets that I talked to. They were very difficult to turn at high and medium speeds. A 109 or 190 would out turn these early 38 models all the time. In my personal opinion Hitech needs to take a look at this as this aircraft should be feared by everyone in everything.

Offline HighTone

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1299
      • Squad Site
Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2011, 11:03:11 AM »
The aircraft doesn't have as much to do with the equation as the pilot does. Fear the pilot not the plane.

I have seen a few P-38 drivers that will convice you that this plane is dangerous enough as it is.

LCA Special Events CO     LCA ~Tainan Kokutai~       
www.lcasquadron.org      Thanks for the Oscar HTC

Offline Debrody

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4487
Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2011, 11:07:04 AM »
Sir...  i dont think a 190 can outturn a p38 in any conditions except at real high speeds (400+)
P38L has boosted ailerons and it can roll like crazy at high speeds. And even the earlyer models are pretty decent up to 400-450mph, their characteristics are close to the 109 G-6.
Have you ever fought against the 80th "Headhunters"? Try it once, great fun  ;)
AoM
City of ice

Offline JOACH1M

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9809
Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2011, 11:07:23 AM »
The aircraft doesn't have as much to do with the equation as the pilot does. Fear the pilot not the plane.

I have seen a few P-38 drivers that will convice you that this plane is dangerous enough as it is.
:aok
FEW ~ BK's ~ AoM
Focke Wulf Me / Last Of The GOATS 🐐
ToC 2013 & 2017 Champ
R.I.P My Brothers <3

Offline WING47

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 127
Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2011, 11:07:54 AM »
Sir...  i dont think a 190 can outturn a p38 in any conditions except at real high speeds (400+)
P38L has boosted ailerons and it can roll like crazy at high speeds. And even the earlyer models are pretty decent up to 400-450mph, their characteristics are close to the 109 G-6.
Have you ever fought against the 80th "Headhunters"? Try it once, great fun  ;)
     ill look em up

Offline shermanjr

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 341
Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2011, 11:21:48 AM »
and even mid war 38js can out turna 190 easly and some 109s
475th fg dgs
404th fighter group Winter SKy Deth ground
361 st fg
1st pursuit squadron avg
+flyingfury+ main arena
in game name pattonjr

Offline Debrody

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4487
Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2011, 11:40:15 AM »
and even mid war 38js can out turna 190 easly and some 109s
Which 109s? I was dueling a few times with Pawz, 38 vs 109, and i could get him. NOT couse im better than him. The sustained performance is about the same, but the 109 can fly slower, has a tighter turn radius and has torque what helps in the extremely low-speed reversals. The 38 only has real advantage in the ropes, can stay uphill amazing long, and has to use it to force the victory.
AoM
City of ice

Offline mbailey

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5677
Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2011, 11:59:58 AM »
should be feared by everyone in everything.

Boo!!   :neener:
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 12:04:57 PM by mbailey »
Mbailey
80th FS "Headhunters"

Ichi Go Ichi E
Character is like a tree and reputation like its shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing.

When the game is over, the Kings and Pawns all go into the same box.

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2011, 12:05:24 PM »
     I know many of my posts have been about the 51, however I have some interesting info about the P-38. First off, late model 38s had something called hydraulically boosted controls, which gave them the edge in high and medium speeds against just about everything, even the spitfire. So it really frustrates me to see 38 pilots having to complain about spixteens all the time. I flew with the 86th Adromini a while back so I know what their talking about. The 38 should, at least in my opinion, be a much more dangerous warbird. However no all P-38s had this, early models COULD NOT TURN according to actual WWII vets that I talked to. They were very difficult to turn at high and medium speeds. A 109 or 190 would out turn these early 38 models all the time. In my personal opinion Hitech needs to take a look at this as this aircraft should be feared by everyone in everything.

Sir, no disrespect intended, but like a lot of posters I think you are looking at the issue of turning without understanding the science involved.

First of all, the phrases "medium" and "high" speed aren't very specific. The key speed for a given airplane in a given configuration is corner velocity, the minimum speed that the airplane can pull max Gs, which yields that aircraft's maximum turn rate. Above this speed an airplane's turn is limited by Gs, below it is limited by available lift (stall.)

When two airplanes are above both their corner velocities, (probably what most players mean by "high speed") the limiting factor is the G loading that either the aircraft or the pilot can stand. Since the "pilot" in AH is limited to 6gs, that means the rate and radius any two aircraft can pull at high speed is always exactly the same! Same speed, same G-loading,=same turn rate and radius.

This is, UNLESS one aircraft is suffering from an increase in control forces preventing it from pulling max Gs. Now in AHII, the virtual pilot can pull 50 pounds of stick force all day long. This makes him a rather strong fellow. At *practical dogfighting airspeeds*, neither the 38 nor the 109 suffer unduly from control forces, even though they had this reputation in R/L. You have to take both of them close to the 400 IAS mark to reach the point you can't pull max Gs. Also, did the 38L have a boosted elevator? I don't *think* it did, and that is what would make a difference in turning at very high airspeeds. Further, the Spit had no reputation for having a heavy elevator that would hamper it at high airspeeds.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Plazus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2868
Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2011, 01:13:04 PM »
Quote
I flew with the 86th Adromini a while back so I know what their talking about.
Did you mean the 82nd FG "Adorimini"? And no, none of us old 82nd members have ever claimed a single thing you had said. And no, I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Quote
First off, late model 38s had something called hydraulically boosted controls, which gave them the edge in high and medium speeds against just about everything, even the spitfire.
We have a variant of the P38 and that is the "L" model. They are hydraulically boosted airlerons. Yes, the P38L does have a significant advantage at speeds greater than 325 mph. Turn rate at those speeds remains the same as in the P38J though.

Quote
The 38 should, at least in my opinion, be a much more dangerous warbird.
People's opinions mean nothing and HTC needs more than just pilots' accounts. HTC needs actual facts and data, along with numbers that support peoples' claims, none which you have provided. The P38 in game is as dangerous as any aircraft in the game.

Quote
However no all P-38s had this, early models COULD NOT TURN according to actual WWII vets that I talked to. They were very difficult to turn at high and medium speeds.
ALL models of the P38s can turn. Granted, the earlier models had a tougher time maneuvering at high speeds than the later models, it does not mean that they could not turn. Again, where are your numbers and data that supports these pilots' claims?

Quote
according to actual WWII vets that I talked to.
Who are these WW2 vets? What unit did they serve in? What year? What theatre of war? How long did they fly the P38s? Did they score any victories? More information would be nice. For the time being, I can only assume that you haven't done much research and that your claims are merely absurd and meaningless.

Quote
So it really frustrates me to see 38 pilots having to complain about spixteens all the time.
I am a dedicated 38 driver and the only time I have trouble with Spit16s is when they are on my 6 or when they are picking. Any other time they over shoot and are generally easy kills.

Quote
A 109 or 190 would out turn these early 38 models all the time. In my personal opinion Hitech needs to take a look at this as this aircraft should be feared by everyone in everything.
Personal opinions are void without facts if you are asking HTC to make a change in the flight model. In WW2, the earlier model P38s scored more air to air victories than the J or L. This was because they were in combat before the P47 and P51 entered service. When these later model P38s (J and L) entered service, they spent a greater amount of time doing ground support- dive bombing and strafing ground targets. A 190 cannot outturn a P38 at any speed. The only thing the 190 and 109 has is roll rate and a slightly higher sustained rate of climb. But since they only have one engine, the 38 will hang in the vertical much better than the 190 and 109. Their engine torque often pulls them back nose down.

WING47, I suggest going to either the TA or DA and hooking up with a P38 stick. He can show you what it can do. I think you would be very surprised. In the meantime, I suggest reading some books before making absurd claims at how certain planes are not modeled correctly.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 01:21:34 PM by Plazus »
Plazus
80th FS "Headhunters"

Axis vs Allies

Offline mbailey

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5677
Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2011, 01:40:49 PM »
Did you mean the 82nd FG "Adorimini"? And no, none of us old 82nd members have ever claimed a single thing you had said. And no, I don't think you know what you are talking about.
We have a variant of the P38 and that is the "L" model. They are hydraulically boosted airlerons. Yes, the P38L does have a significant advantage at speeds greater than 325 mph. Turn rate at those speeds remains the same as in the P38J though.
People's opinions mean nothing and HTC needs more than just pilots' accounts. HTC needs actual facts and data, along with numbers that support peoples' claims, none which you have provided. The P38 in game is as dangerous as any aircraft in the game.
ALL models of the P38s can turn. Granted, the earlier models had a tougher time maneuvering at high speeds than the later models, it does not mean that they could not turn. Again, where are your numbers and data that supports these pilots' claims?
Who are these WW2 vets? What unit did they serve in? What year? What theatre of war? How long did they fly the P38s? Did they score any victories? More information would be nice. For the time being, I can only assume that you haven't done much research and that your claims are merely absurd and meaningless.
I am a dedicated 38 driver and the only time I have trouble with Spit16s is when they are on my 6 or when they are picking. Any other time they over shoot and are generally easy kills.
Personal opinions are void without facts if you are asking HTC to make a change in the flight model. In WW2, the earlier model P38s scored more air to air victories than the J or L. This was because they were in combat before the P47 and P51 entered service. When these later model P38s (J and L) entered service, they spent a greater amount of time doing ground support- dive bombing and strafing ground targets. A 190 cannot outturn a P38 at any speed. The only thing the 190 and 109 has is roll rate and a slightly higher sustained rate of climb. But since they only have one engine, the 38 will hang in the vertical much better than the 190 and 109. Their engine torque often pulls them back nose down.

WING47, I suggest going to either the TA or DA and hooking up with a P38 stick. He can show you what it can do. I think you would be very surprised. In the meantime, I suggest reading some books before making absurd claims at how certain planes are not modeled correctly.
He was in the 82nd?

Oh...and i like my response better  :D
Mbailey
80th FS "Headhunters"

Ichi Go Ichi E
Character is like a tree and reputation like its shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing.

When the game is over, the Kings and Pawns all go into the same box.

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2011, 02:10:39 PM »
WING47,

Don't fall for the History Channel style hyperbole.  The P-38 in AH is easily one of the best fighters, but there never was a P-38 in reality that would utterly dominate all of its contemporaries the way you describe.

As Plazus said, we have the P-38L with those boosted controls, and hence it is the best rolling aircraft in AH over ~400mph.  You can't do anything to make it turn better with boosted controls, certainly not better than the Spitfire which had notoriously light elevator controls, even at high speeds.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Plazus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2868
Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2011, 03:05:33 PM »
He was in the 82nd?

Oh...and i like my response better  :D

 :lol He was never in the 82nd, but he tagged along with us a bit from time to time.
Plazus
80th FS "Headhunters"

Axis vs Allies

Offline JOACH1M

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9809
Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2011, 03:18:53 PM »
Ok ok, early Luft planes all te way to the g14 38's are very outclassed. Late war 109's and 190's will have a helluva time turning with a deascent 38j/L.


190a5 and turn with a p47, a 38 outturns a jug at slow speeds. Therfore a 190 can't out turn a 38, even the a5 (the best turning 190)
FEW ~ BK's ~ AoM
Focke Wulf Me / Last Of The GOATS 🐐
ToC 2013 & 2017 Champ
R.I.P My Brothers <3

Offline mbailey

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5677
Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2011, 03:20:07 PM »
:lol He was never in the 82nd, but he tagged along with us a bit from time to time.
  Ahhh...rgr   Just needed a sanity check
Mbailey
80th FS "Headhunters"

Ichi Go Ichi E
Character is like a tree and reputation like its shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing.

When the game is over, the Kings and Pawns all go into the same box.