Ta 152

[Wmaker]

See Rule #4

[STEELE]

Icepac, it's the Typhoon that has the thick wing, they were shooting for a laminar flow when they designed the Tempest's wing, which is much thinner, the Typh will (well, should, but in AH I can't feel all that much difference) turn better at low speeds because a thick wing has more lift at slower speeds.  The TA flies like a sailplane? I have to really pull/push hard stick to get the nose to point where I want it compared to the dora, (which completely contradicts Will Reshkes description of his 152 reacting nimbly to the slightest of elevator inputs)fly them both in succesion and see what I mean.  The 152s outfought and downed several Yaks at wars end, (mostly at very low alts!). Try to outmaneuver a Yak in our AH 152 at treetop level and post your results  

[Lusche]

The 152s outfought and downed several Yaks at wars end, (mostly at very low alts!). Try to outmaneuver a Yak in our AH 152 at treetop level and post your results 

Did they? What was the tactical situation? Energy state of the participants? What skill level had the Yak pilots? If merely the fact than plane A once shot down plane B does present any evidence about aerodynamic capabilities...

Well, in one knife fight I had successfully out turned a Ki-84 in my Ta 152. Does that now prove that in AH the Ta turns better than the Frank?

[STEELE]

Did they? What was the tactical situation? Energy state of the participants? What skill level had the Yak pilots? If merely the fact than plane A once shot down plane B does present any evidence about aerodynamic capabilities...

Well, in one knife fight I had successfully out turned a Ki-84 in my Ta 152. Does that now prove that in AH the Ta turns better than the Frank?

We may never find out, as the Ki never had to fight any 152's in the war.  I suppose if similar skill level pilots fought, and the 152 won every time, such is the case with the Ta vs Yak fights, we might be able to arrive at such a conclusion!

[Lusche]

We may never find out, as the Ki never had to fight any 152's in the war. 

I wasn't talking about Ki vs Ta during the war... I was using an analogy

An isolated event during the war is being used as an argument for the actual performance and aerodynamic qualities of a plane. Well, I just did the same for Aces High to highlight the shortcomings of such reasonings.

[Wmaker]

Just wanted to add....Krusty, listen to Stoney, he actually knows what he's talkiing about.

[STEELE]

I wasn't talking about Ki vs Ta during the war... I was using an analogy

An isolated event during the war is being used as an argument for the actual performance and aerodynamic qualities of a plane. Well, I just did the same for Aces High to highlight the shortcomings of such reasonings.

I understand, but I believe it was about 7 different occasions the 152 bested the Yaks at treetop level, and never the other way around.  Just one example of what makes me think the real Ta really did handle better than ours does.

[Lusche]

I understand, but I believe it was about 7 different occasions the 152 bested the Yaks at treetop level, and never the other way around.  Just one example of what makes me think the real Ta really did handle better than ours does.

a) seven isn't really much statistically wise.
b) are those fights / victories well documented? The amount of hearsay and myths concerning the Ta 152 is quite staggering.
c) the question still stands: What were the tactical situations and pilot quality? Where those Yak drivers typical Soviet fighter pilots? Could it be that it was simply the standard Eastern Front engagements between some German "Experten" and the usual Soviet rookies?

[MiloMorai]

Soviet pilots of 1945 were of better quality than those in 1941.

[Debrody]

Try to outmaneuver a Yak in our AH 152 at treetop level and post your results  

It can! Just dont overload with 40-50 mins of fuel. Under 25% the Ta can turn fairly well. Remember when i made that spit14 run to the ack, even after he roped me? He did the favour and pinged my rear tank  
The main problem is the amazing instability, the tail wants to overtake the nose real bad + those jerky jaw motions makes the aiming real hard for me.
The plane behaves like as it had a very small vertical stabilizer, even though it was lenghtened, enlarged compared to the dora.

[Krusty]

Stoney, take a look at the AH film link I posted. It is but one of many examples of our in-game Ta152 pulling BS moves and losing control.

The behavior IN-GAME does not in any way match real world descriptions during combat and test flights.

I think people harp on aspect ratio but they don't even stop to understand what is being contested. There are many types of "instability"...

Okay, fine, perhaps it does have more instability with those wings but that instability woudn't do what I recorded, now would it? So maybe YOU'RE getting stuck up on one thing and not looking any further. Maybe you're perfectly correct in what you say but it's totally unrelated from the problem at hand. I may simply not be describing it well. There is no other plane nearly as bad as the Ta152 in this game, and it doesn't seem to match any war-time tests or anecdotes. There are some comments about a few aspects but clearly the planes weren't falling out of the sky tail-first, nor butt-sliding in turns to present their belly to the wind. With the relatively few numbers in existence these events would have taken a large percentage of the total airframes out of play.

To get to the heart of the issue, I think you're saying "Aspect ratio" and I'm saying "not aspect ratio" and you're right with regards to what you think I'm talking about and I'm right with the actual problems I'm really talking about.

The plane falls out of the AH skies more than it lands. It's one of the few that couldn't be air-spawned in-game (before the level airspawns) because even when loaded lightly it was tail spin all the way into the ground from 15k, 20k, whatever. That happened many a time to me. When in these tail slides, tail spins, whatever you want to call them, you cannot recover. Not with 40,000 feet below you.

Something is not right.


So if you want to tell me I don't know anything, fine. Go ahead. I may not have read the same technical books as you have, but I know it when I see it. Something's wrong with the way it's modeled in-game. It ain't the aspect ratio.

What is it?

[icepac]

I will fly the ta152 tonight exclusively and try to check out the entire flight envelope.

As far as wing thickness of the tempest vs the tyhpoon, one would think the typhoon should have much better slow speed turn performance than the tempest..........at least until the E lost from drag catches up in an extended turn fight.

Willi Reschke's out turning the tempest was more a function of the tempest pilot spending an extended amount of time turning to the left which is the wrong direction to turn in a griffon equipped plane.

[2bighorn]

Willi Reschke's out turning the tempest was more a function of the tempest pilot spending an extended amount of time turning to the left which is the wrong direction to turn in a griffon equipped plane.

Napier Sabre in that case. Mitchell was in Mk. V

[MiloMorai]

Napier Sabre in that case. Mitchell was in Mk. V

Props rotated in the same direction for the Sabre and Griffon.

[2bighorn]

Props rotated in the same direction for the Sabre and Griffon.

Did anybody claim otherwise?