Standardize Defensive Gunners on Bombers

[Karnak]

Ju88 nose gun is fixed, so nothing there to map.  The Ju88 would, by your example, a 5, 6, and 7.
B25C: 2
B25H: 2,3,5,6
B29: 2,3,4,5,6.  It doesn't have a true "belly" gunner. It has the turret, but not a gunner.  The gunner(s) are in the waist and use the belly by remote.

Well, that kinda breaks it.  Number gaps need to be avoided.  I was subbing in the belly position on the Ju88 as being more of a tail gun.  I forgot about the two dorsal guns.

[SmokinLoon]

Well, that kinda breaks it.  Number gaps need to be avoided.  I was subbing in the belly position on the Ju88 as being more of a tail gun.  I forgot about the two dorsal guns.

The Ju88's ventral is more of a belly turret, it does not really have a "cone of fire" that goes far above straight behind the plane. 

I don't mind the number breaks.  If the Ju88 was assigned only the 5, 6, and 7 keys it would be fine by me.  They would be STANDARDIZED!    

[Wiley]

Well, that kinda breaks it.  Number gaps need to be avoided.  I was subbing in the belly position on the Ju88 as being more of a tail gun.  I forgot about the two dorsal guns.

I don't think gaps would necessarily be a game breaker.  On the one hand, it's a little bit kludgy.  On the other, the convenience of knowing the same number points you the same direction out of the plane would be a great improvement, IMO.  It would take some adjustment, but once you got used to 2 always being the tail, or whatever, it would become second nature and you'd be able to spend less time trying to figure out which button to press and more time trying to move your gun onto target from the default position it returns to when you switch guns.

Wiley.

[tmetal]

having a specific number always be a specific gunner possition (2 is always rear gunner, etc) would allow for mapping gunner possitions to your joystick (a second hat switch perhaps); which is a great idea IMHO. Use the most popular buffs as the starting templetes (B17, B24, Lancaster) and work other buffs with different gunner possitions (Ju88) into something similar. For example the upper gunners on the Ju88 could easily be considered left and right gunner possitions sence they both can't be mapped as the upper gunner possition.  Rather than concentrating on where each gun is located on the plane, consider what area that gun is intended to protect instead. (left, right, up, down, front, back...)

[SEseph]

if the flaps were set to different keys for each fighter then it would be a problem for fighters.  see the point just like in gvs no matter which gv you ate in you know it's pretty much standardized positions.  but in bombers they are not. 

semp

The point I was making wasn't the key stroke, it was the 'pay attention to your screen' part. Bombers are given the F3 mode, which most people use to look around and scan for enemy cons. While people are doing this, look at your gun positions. It's an integral part of playing the bomber.

Back to the flaps for a second... depending on the plane, your flaps can have a few notches, a single notch, settings that come down at high speed and those that require a speed of under 200mph. Knowledge of things such as this, are required to fly a fighter effectively. Since a bomber does not require this, nor does it require a major effort in calibration or much anything else, why can't people learn each bomber's gun positions? I did during that time spent scanning the skies. Each plane you need to know certain things about, same with GV's. The bomber's need to know item is the gunner positions. It's not like it's rocket surgery to get a laser guided drop... Quite a few people don't even know how to operate each engine independently and switch back to the main 'all engines' selection. This is knowledge of the plane also, but for everything I've said aside from the gunnery positions, the pilot must learn on their own in some form or fashion outside directly being told during every flight.. unlike the gunnery positions.

[flatiron1]

been wanting this long time

[stabbyy]

+1 its very annoying to fly somthing like an 88 with 3 guns then go to somthing like a 24 with 7 with no keys being the same

also when ur getting shot at... its not exactly easy to find the right key... and useally to late

[Mystery]

Suggestion makes sense to me.

+1

I'd really really like it if we could set bomber defensive gun convergence for all mannable guns 

[Karnak]

Would the following scheme work for you guys?

Mid-Upper: 2
Tail: 3
Nose: 4
Right Waist: 5
Left Waist: 6
Belly: 7

A-20G: 2
B-25C: 2
B5N2: 2
Bf110C-4b: 2
Bf110G-2: 2
Boston: 2
D3A1: 2
Il-2: 2
Ju87D-5: 2
SBD-5: 2
TBM-3: 2, 3
Ju88A-4: 5, 6, 7
Lancaster: 2, 3, 4
B-25H: 2, 3, 5, 6
B-29: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
G4M1: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Ki-67: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
B-17G: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
B-24J: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

[lulu]

-1

 

[Karnak]

-1

 

Why so?

[guncrasher]

The point I was making wasn't the key stroke, it was the 'pay attention to your screen' part. Bombers are given the F3 mode, which most people use to look around and scan for enemy cons. While people are doing this, look at your gun positions. It's an integral part of playing the bomber.

Back to the flaps for a second... depending on the plane, your flaps can have a few notches, a single notch, settings that come down at high speed and those that require a speed of under 200mph. Knowledge of things such as this, are required to fly a fighter effectively. Since a bomber does not require this, nor does it require a major effort in calibration or much anything else, why can't people learn each bomber's gun positions? I did during that time spent scanning the skies. Each plane you need to know certain things about, same with GV's. The bomber's need to know item is the gunner positions. It's not like it's rocket surgery to get a laser guided drop... Quite a few people don't even know how to operate each engine independently and switch back to the main 'all engines' selection. This is knowledge of the plane also, but for everything I've said aside from the gunnery positions, the pilot must learn on their own in some form or fashion outside directly being told during every flight.. unlike the gunnery positions.

imagine the key to lower the flaps was different in each plane, you can learn in on every single plane, but why  is it that it's a big deal to have flaps mapped to the same key no matter which airplane you fly?

same principle here.  make standard so if let say 2 is pressed then it will be the ball turret (if equiped) no matter which buff you fly.  not really a big deal.   people should concentrate on playing and having fun, not trying to remember that the tail gunner is a different key for each buff.

semp

[SEseph]

imagine the key to lower the flaps was different in each plane, you can learn in on every single plane, but why  is it that it's a big deal to have flaps mapped to the same key no matter which airplane you fly?

same principle here.  make standard so if let say 2 is pressed then it will be the ball turret (if equiped) no matter which buff you fly.  not really a big deal.   people should concentrate on playing and having fun, not trying to remember that the tail gunner is a different key for each buff.

semp

What exactly are these people doing in their bomber's that they can't figure out the keys well in advance? The point isn't the keys, it's the need to know your aircraft. Bombers are different from fighters and there by have a different need IE learn your plane, but the argument here is: well it makes it easier for the person to fly 5 sectors and not pay attention to their aircraft. Well you can do this a fighter you might say. This may be true, but a bomber's job is not to fight and require a need for for the pilot to learn about wep/dive speed/ACMs etc etc. It requires the pilot to learn to read their E6B, press and hold U and Y keys and use F6 mode to find a target. Beyond that.. not much. Bombers are easier to learn, for the most part, than fighters and yet people are trying to make them easier because people don't want to do something. I mean heck, you can even get a second set of eyes into a bomber and that second set of eyes can fire at something independent of the first set of eyes. It also gives you a massive amount of fire power and a steady gun platform.

Do away with the damage read out because it's in the same corner as the gun positions (we've already said it's too hard for pilots to look at this, so they don't need the damage there.. it might distract them) and remove anything people don't need or find  inconvenient. GV's for example. People don't like the new auto trans we got. Why not?? They can think less, it's a simpler system and all that jazz, so everyone must be in love with it and there fore if anyone is a loud disenter, they must be told why they are wrong.

Engines are hard too. Not many people know how to control all the engines independently of one another, and there are no lists of information for this that the pilot can get ahold of, yet this is okay...

Also, I'm sure that there must have been a massive brain fart at HTC for not having thought of this in the last 12 or so years. I mean, it's so simple it's almost hard to believe they haven't put it in yet each time they've put in a new bomber!! Silly HTC.

I'll borrow this from another thread currently going... People have no clue about dive flaps, recovery flaps or dive breaks on most airgraft they use, but they are all the same key.. not really. A P51D's Dive flaps are also the first notch of flaps, so no 'Shift C' The P38 has a recovery set of flaps that require Shift C, but alot of people assume this is a dive break, not a recovery flap... Yet it's Shift c AND the light says Dive Flaps. So, since we are fixing everything to be easy so people have more fun and time.. fix this! It has to be standardized, or it's hard.

As for the button configuration.. If I'm in an aircraft, say the A20, and I want to hit 1 and 2 to switch back and forth because they are right next to each other because it's the only gun turret and the pilot... well no more. Also, the 110 and the like MUST be remapped because it's hard to remember that it;s not a ball turret so it must be something other than 2. It doesn't matter if people use it regularly, it's the fact it's too hard to remember and that must be catered to before other things.

[SEseph]

alot of the examples I used were just examples. No need to say something about the way it was layed out where 2 is the upper turret. 

[Stellaris]

I dunno that bombers are easier than fighters.  They require a different approach that's more about mission planning to ensure success.  Plan well and it's a milk run.  Plan poorly and you're a big fat target.

I have to admit I'm not a big fan of bombers, and a big reason is that I find it annoying to try to jump around all the turret positions.  I'd find that to be true even if they were standardized.  What I'd really like to see is auto gunners with a bunch of dynamic parameters, so that you can designate priority targets (in outside view mode for example), set engagement ranges, ammo conservation, etc (in flight).  I'd also like the ability to over-ride the auto-gunners (preferably with standardized or programmable position keys) to do it myself.  I really like the bombsight model (and BTW, didn't you used to have to click the map to enter the target altitude?  What happened to that?  It was cool.)  I really don't like having to jump out of the crosshairs to go fight off someone, thereby totally ruining the drop.  This moves out of unrealistic into silly, and out of silly into just annoying.

And - while I'm wishing for bombers to be cooler - I'd wish for my virtual gunners to give virtual fighter calls.  "109, ten o'clock high, diving."  Now THAT would be keen.  Hell - HTC - I'll code that myself for you, if you want it.

Oooooo!  And incendiaries!  Really effective against towns, less so against bases, barely at all against ships!  Requires yet a bit more in terms of mission planning.

OK, I'm done.