Author Topic: JU-87 upgrade recomendations  (Read 1525 times)

Offline Mystery

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Re: JU-87 upgrade recomendations
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2011, 12:05:38 PM »
I'm all for adding more Ju87 variants, no doubt.  My queston is simple: have the people who really want the JU-87G-1 with the dual 30mm or 37mm AP guns flown the Hurricane IID with the dual 40mm cannons?  The Stuka tank hunter would fly more like the Il-2 (slow and lumbering), with far less ammo.  The Hurricane IID would be faster, climb better, and have very similar guns and ammo loadouts.

The Ju87G-1's only real blessing it that it can carry 2000 lbs (iirc) all the while having the guns too.

Loon, I believe the 40mm's in the Hurri IID are HE and not AP. Either that or I completely suck at schwacking heavy armor with them - highly probable  :frown:. The 40's do a very nice job with M3's, Jeeps, M8's and the occasional Ostwind/Wirblewind though.

+1 to the JU-87G-1 with dual 30mm/37mm.

Similar to Krusty's reasoning, -1 to the 20mm variant
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: JU-87 upgrade recomendations
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2011, 12:46:23 PM »
Loon, I believe the 40mm's in the Hurri IID are HE and not AP. Either that or I completely suck at schwacking heavy armor with them - highly probable  :frown:. The 40's do a very nice job with M3's, Jeeps, M8's and the occasional Ostwind/Wirblewind though.

+1 to the JU-87G-1 with dual 30mm/37mm.

Similar to Krusty's reasoning, -1 to the 20mm variant

The Vickers S cannons on the Hurricane IID fire AP projectiles.  Im on my work lapop so I cant post the stats, but Looshy can produce the exact the projectile weights and velocities differences between the British Vickers S 40mm AP and the Soviet NS-37 37mm AP fired from the IL-2.  The Vickers S relies on projectile weight and the NS-37 relies on velocity.  Ultimately, there is very little difference between the 2 cannons vs tanks.  Keep in mind that the NS-37's have about 3X the rate of fire and 3X the ammo available as well.  The IL-2 has far more room for error than the Hurricane IID. 


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Offline Mystery

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Re: JU-87 upgrade recomendations
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2011, 01:39:36 PM »
 :o Loon, you are correct sir and I am in error.

A link to some particulars re the 40mm Vickers S:
http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=97:vickers-40mm-qsq-gun&catid=44:gunsrockets&Itemid=60
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: JU-87 upgrade recomendations
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2011, 02:02:13 PM »
The 20mm on a Stuka were so rare and only intended for ground strafing, but would be horribly abused in the MAs. I don't think they should be added.

Ju 87D-1 = 559 produced
Ju 87D-3 = 1559 produced
Ju 87D-5 = 1178 produced

All D-5s were manufactured with the wing mounted 20mm cannon as that was one of the main primary changes from the D-3 to the D-5.  It was not "rare"


Adding the D-5 will mean the Ju 87 can stick around the battlefield after it drops its bombs and would be able to strafe buildings, thin skinned ground vehicles, ammo and fuel bunkers, etc.  It's not going to make the Stuka into some uber dogfighting machine, it's still going to be the same easy kill that it is.

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: JU-87 upgrade recomendations
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2011, 02:09:48 PM »
The updated Brewster is absolutely rediculous, and it would spank the 20mil equipped Ju87 soundly. So what's the big deal about adding them?   Also, Rudel got something like 13 air-to-air kills using 20mils, (OK , not sure how many were using the 20's, but some were for sure)
It would still be wayyy slower than an A20, with a little bit less hitting power against fighters.   +1 for them to be added 10 years ago  :angel:

The majority of Rudel's kills that he is credited were in the FW 190, his kills in the Stuka were actually kills by the rear gunner and as pilot, Rudel received credit.

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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: JU-87 upgrade recomendations
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2011, 02:56:55 PM »
Ju 87D-1 = 559 produced
Ju 87D-3 = 1559 produced
Ju 87D-5 = 1178 produced

All D-5s were manufactured with the wing mounted 20mm cannon as that was one of the main primary changes from the D-3 to the D-5.  It was not "rare"

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Offline iron650

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Re: JU-87 upgrade recomendations
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2011, 04:31:01 PM »

This is written to the stuka:
DEFENSELESS TARGET, COME HO ME DOWN
Im sure the 20 or the 37mm gun option would change it    :devil
+1 to the updated Sturzkampfflugzeug

+1

Wouldn't a 37mm be harder to aim at moving targets?

Offline tmetal

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Re: JU-87 upgrade recomendations
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2011, 12:28:02 PM »
From the few videos out there on the web showing the 37mm guns in use. it appears that the guns both fired at the same time, (feel free to prove me wrong) something that niether the IL2 or Hurri do. I am inclined to think that while giving you fewer trigger pulls between full ammo and empty it would be more accurate and depending on the convergence you could more easily place 2 rounds onto the exact same spot on a tank and cause fatal damage in game.

One way or the other, I am all for more options for my favorite ride. +1

The real problem is anyone should feel like they can come to this forum and make a wish without being treated in a derogatory manner.  The only discussion should be centered around whether it would work, or how it would work and so on always in a respectful manner.

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Offline Krusty

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Re: JU-87 upgrade recomendations
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2011, 12:34:04 PM »
Adding the D-5 will mean the Ju 87 can stick around the battlefield after it drops its bombs and would be able to strafe buildings, thin skinned ground vehicles, ammo and fuel bunkers, etc.  It's not going to make the Stuka into some uber dogfighting machine, it's still going to be the same easy kill that it is.

Puh-LLLEEEZE....

You know for a fact what it'll be used for. Same as the quaz-hizzo SpitV that was only used for ground attack, right? You pretend it would be used to strafe town buildings if included in game?

you are not that naive.

Offline Krusty

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Re: JU-87 upgrade recomendations
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2011, 01:33:27 PM »
As a P.S.: I don't know much about total production numbers, just how they were used and how they were replaced quickly.

Quick snip from Wiki (hey it's convenient and says essentially what I've read elsewhere)

"On 3 August 1943, Milch contradicted this and declared that this increase in fighter production would not affect production of the Ju 87, Ju 188, Ju 288 and Ju 290. This was an important consideration as the life expectancy of a Ju 87 had been reduced (since 1941) from 9.5 months to 5.5 months to just 100 operational flying hours. On 26 October, General der Schlachtflieger Ernst Kupfer reported the Ju 87 could no longer survive in operations and that the Focke-Wulf Fw 190F should take its place. Milch finally agreed and ordered the minimal continuance of Ju 87 D-3 and D-5 production for a smooth transition period. In May 1944, production wound down. 78 Ju 87s were built in May and 69 rebuilt from damaged machines. In the next six months, 438 Ju 87 Ds and Gs were added to the Ju 87 force as new or repaired aircraft."

Remember the D-5 was only started in early 1943, so already it was being phased out within a few months.

From vectorsite, on the D-5

"Confronted with a hostile air environment, by mid-1943 the Stuka was limited mostly to night operations. The Ju-87D-5 had no particular optimizations for flying at night, with pilots coming in low and slow and dropping antipersonnel bombs on clusters of incautious Allied troops. The Luftwaffe learned this trick from the Soviets, who had become fond of using little Po-2 biplanes on such harassment raids earlier in the war.

Although a "Ju-87D-6" subvariant was planned, with the focus apparently being the simplification of manufacturing, it was not built. The next variant, the "Ju-87D-7", was a Ju-87D-5 with night flight instrumentation and long flame-damper exhausts to hide the exhaust glow from the pilot or potential enemies."

Sources listed as:
THE WARPLANES OF THE THIRD REICH by William Green, Galahad Books, 1970.
STUKA by Alex Vanags-Baginskis, from THE GREAT BOOK OF WORLD WAR II AIRPLANES, Bonanza, 1984.
WARPLANES OF THE LUFTWAFFE, edited by David Donald, Aerospace Publishing Limited, 1994.


It was a short-lived, not-much-used version that was a night nuisance raider. Those 20mm cannons were almost never used (especially at night) and it was more of an impotent attempt to remain defiant in the losing war.

Sure, it was a plane used by the Luftwaffe and it was used in combat, and sure it meets the inclusion bullet points for AH, but overall it's totally unrepresentative of the Ju87s and how they behaved in the real war. Put them in AH and all you'll get are "drop 1 4k cookie and then dogfight" types. They have limited to no scenario/FSO use and would only be an a-historical furballer in the MAs.

Offline bustr

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Re: JU-87 upgrade recomendations
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2011, 03:26:57 PM »


Sure, it was a plane used by the Luftwaffe and it was used in combat, and sure it meets the inclusion bullet points for AH, but overall it's totally unrepresentative of the Ju87s and how they behaved in the real war. Put them in AH and all you'll get are "drop 1 4k cookie and then dogfight" types. They have limited to no scenario/FSO use and would only be an a-historical furballer in the MAs.

The MA's do not behave like WW2, they behave like Quake with wings. "Boys Just Wanna Have Fun" is the operative motto in the MA's. The D5 is a perfict tool for use in the MA by the manner in which we use these toys. Like we won't HO and run in a Beaufit or a Whirlly or a Firefly or a SeaHurri or a Ta152 or a IAR80 or B26, or B25, or A20, or anything new and old available to us if it has cannons?

In WW2 airplanes behaved in the manner they did because people died, were effected by physics for real, and they were following tactical orders and doctrine that they could be shot or imprisoned for disobeying. We are beer guzzling geeks in our undies playing a game. A Very Good Game.....but a bunch of geeks.

The D5 is one of the few high potential fun machines players will use in groups while having a good chance of generating a small cadre of Expertin solo aces. Ju87 missions very often are hillarious for attackers and defenders. You gotta take your hat off to a an aircraft that a player can make a rabid herd of LaLa and spits fly around in circles spraying all of their ammo trying to kill while feild ack is just a light show for it. I watch this all the time while trying to nail it from soft guns.

I vote Krusty be made Aces High Culture Czar with the full powers and authority to cancel anyones subscription who dosen't play the game as closely as possible to how WW2 was actualy fought. +100
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Offline LThunderpocket

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Re: JU-87 upgrade recomendations
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2011, 06:49:25 PM »
The MA's do not behave like WW2, they behave like Quake with wings. "Boys Just Wanna Have Fun" is the operative motto in the MA's. The D5 is a perfict tool for use in the MA by the manner in which we use these toys. Like we won't HO and run in a Beaufit or a Whirlly or a Firefly or a SeaHurri or a Ta152 or a IAR80 or B26, or B25, or A20, or anything new and old available to us if it has cannons?

In WW2 airplanes behaved in the manner they did because people died, were effected by physics for real, and they were following tactical orders and doctrine that they could be shot or imprisoned for disobeying. We are beer guzzling geeks in our undies playing a game. A Very Good Game.....but a bunch of geeks.

The D5 is one of the few high potential fun machines players will use in groups while having a good chance of generating a small cadre of Expertin solo aces. Ju87 missions very often are hillarious for attackers and defenders. You gotta take your hat off to a an aircraft that a player can make a rabid herd of LaLa and spits fly around in circles spraying all of their ammo trying to kill while feild ack is just a light show for it. I watch this all the time while trying to nail it from soft guns.

I vote Krusty be made Aces High Culture Czar with the full powers and authority to cancel anyones subscription who dosen't play the game as closely as possible to how WW2 was actualy fought. +100

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Offline Rob52240

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Re: JU-87 upgrade recomendations
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2011, 12:53:17 AM »
I find all this talk about 'abuse' in the MA hysterical.

Everything in the MA that can be abused is abused.  If something can't be abused people will still try.  If the MA was meant to be a place where things weren't abused, we would see a lot of panthers breaking down and a lot of tigers running out of gas.
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Offline LThunderpocket

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Re: JU-87 upgrade recomendations
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2011, 12:57:30 AM »
i think i remember seeing somthing about the fm2 or f4f..dont remember witch one,not being able to turn with a Zero.my romp,those things turn almost as good as a brew..witch is once again bull..i'd say those are the most abused planes simply cause they are overmodeled/uncorrectly modeled planes
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: JU-87 upgrade recomendations
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2011, 01:23:16 AM »
i think i remember seeing somthing about the fm2 or f4f..dont remember witch one,not being able to turn with a Zero.my romp,those things turn almost as good as a brew..witch is once again bull..i'd say those are the most abused planes simply cause they are overmodeled/uncorrectly modeled planes

First of all, neither Wildcat plane we have will out turn a Zeke if both pilots are of equal skill.  In AH, the Zeke, like in real life, will out turn either of the Wildcats.  The best the Wildcat can hope for is to stay with a Zeke in a turn for maybe 2-3 turns tops and it better make the kill before that, otherwise the Wildcat driver is going to find out why the Zeke was the scourge of the Pacific.

Nor do either of our Wildcats easily turn with our Finnish Brewster.

Your basis for claiming the flight models are incorrect stem from your lack of experience and skill and nothing else.  You do not have anything to back up your claims that the flight models are incorrect other than your own experience and we already know what that amounts to.  This is just like your claim that the planes you choose have been altered to fly like "crap" because of how easily you die in them. 


ack-ack
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