Author Topic: P51 colides with Skyraider  (Read 5344 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: P51 colides with Skyraider
« Reply #120 on: February 10, 2012, 09:30:54 AM »
The report of the crash between the P-51 and Skyraider has been released.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/P-51D%20Mustang%20D-FBBD%20and%20%20Douglas%20AD-4N%20Skyraider%20F-AZDP%2002-12.pdf

Of note for the P-51:

Despite the damage it was possible to confirm that the rudder and elevator operating cables had remained attached to their surfaces.

Offline JOACH1M

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Re: P51 colides with Skyraider
« Reply #121 on: February 10, 2012, 09:33:30 AM »
The report of the crash between the P-51 and Skyraider has been released.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/P-51D%20Mustang%20D-FBBD%20and%20%20Douglas%20AD-4N%20Skyraider%20F-AZDP%2002-12.pdf

Of note for the P-51:

Despite the damage it was possible to confirm that the rudder and elevator operating cables had remained attached to their surfaces.
Wow, thanks for posting this! :aok
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Offline Golfer

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Re: P51 colides with Skyraider
« Reply #122 on: February 10, 2012, 10:05:39 AM »
Control continuity does not mean they were not impeded, bound or the feel changed in such a way that your RFN (Right F&@!ing Now) decision to stay in or get out at 400' is going to include a thorough test to see what's what.

He made the right decision and walked away as testament to such.

Offline colmbo

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Re: P51 colides with Skyraider
« Reply #123 on: February 10, 2012, 11:23:19 AM »
Control continuity does not mean they were not impeded, bound or the feel changed in such a way that your RFN (Right F&@!ing Now) decision to stay in or get out at 400' is going to include a thorough test to see what's what.

He made the right decision and walked away as testament to such.

And it appears to me the aft fuselage is tweaked with the tail bent down slightly.  Just aft of the star/bar insignia might be a tear/crack in the skin.  The tail being bent down would explain the "unusual aft stick position".  I would have gotten out.
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Offline lengro

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Re: P51 colides with Skyraider
« Reply #124 on: February 10, 2012, 11:36:27 AM »
Only one went down - according to some people, real world collision model must be faulty.  :)


« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 11:42:44 AM by lengro »
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Offline Bruv119

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Re: P51 colides with Skyraider
« Reply #125 on: February 10, 2012, 11:47:17 AM »
yes thats right blame the Frenchman!    :D
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Offline icepac

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Re: P51 colides with Skyraider
« Reply #126 on: February 10, 2012, 12:28:53 PM »
The mustang pilot is lucky to not have had the stick shove back full deflection when the cables were pinched at the bulkhead.

He would not have gotten out.

Offline MarineUS

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Re: P51 colides with Skyraider
« Reply #127 on: February 12, 2012, 09:21:46 PM »
Only one went down - according to some people, real world collision model must be faulty.  :)



:rofl :aok
Like, ya know, when that thing that makes you move, it has pistons and things, When your thingamajigy is providing power, you do not hear other peoples thingamajig when they are providing power.

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Offline eagl

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Re: P51 colides with Skyraider
« Reply #128 on: February 12, 2012, 10:16:50 PM »
Looked to me like the skyraider pilot lost sight of the mustang and pulled into him after the mustang broke out of the formation.  The mustang broke out and then rolled out of his turn, and the skyraider turned and flew into the mustang.  That's what it looked like to me.

Now that it's not "speculation", here's my opinion based on the crash video and accident report.

I find it amazing that the skyraider pilot though it was "normal" to lose sight of the lead aircraft during the pitchout.  The second aircraft to pitch out should have become the navigation lead aircraft in order to be able to maintain sight, while the third to pitch would transition his sight from the first aircraft to the second one when the first one pitched out, then follow the second one when it was his turn to go.

That way nobody would lose sight at any point.  Terribly poor pre-flight planning, poor flight leadership, poor execution of wingman responsibilities, poor briefing, and the evaluator that checked out the skyraider pilot for the formation demo ought to get a spot evaluation of his own, focusing on formation procedures and lead/wing responsibilities including planning, briefing, in-flight, and post-flight debrief.  There is no excuse for this collision.  The skyraider's own statements show that he had no business being in that formation, and the mustang driver should have been very concerned about having him on his wing.  Losing sight routinely during a pitchout of this sort is stupidly poor planning and execution, and it could have easily been planned, briefed, and flown in such a way as to allow the skyraider pilot to maintain visual through the entire maneuver.  Stupid.

My last bit of opinion is that had the plane felt more flyable, a reasonable thing for the mustang driver to do would be to climb up a few thousand feet and do a controllability check.  This is standard USAF procedure whenever structural damage is known or suspected.  From a high enough altitude to lose control and still safely bail out, the plane is gradually slowed and configured for landing, until the plane either becomes very difficult to control or a reasonable landing speed is reached.  If the slowest speed and configuration is unacceptable for landing, then the plane is flown to a bailout area and the pilot bails out.  If the plane is controllable at a reasonable landing speed and the landing gear can be lowered properly, then the pilot returns to the nearest suitable runway (preferrably a long/wide one) and lands in front of a large crowd of emergency response personnel.

We had a midair between 2 T-37s about 9 years ago, here at Sheppard AFB.  One of the T-37s lost a wing and that crew safely ejected.  The other one had its nose section shoved up badly enough to make lowering the landing gear a very bad idea, so after a controllability check done above 10,000 ft and with a chase ship watching things from a safe position, they returned for a belly landing on our biggest runway.

The difference of course is that military fighters and bombers have ejection seats.  Controllability checks in non-ejection seat aircraft are a bit more hairy, doubly so if the crew does not have parachutes.  But the procedure still applies...  Climb to a safe altitude, and then see if you can get the plane configured and slowed down enough to land before it becomes unflyable.  In the case of this midair between the mustang and skyraider, obviously the stang driver didn't think the plane would fly long enough to give it a try so he quite reasonably bailed out.  He hit the tail on the way out due to the plane pitching down when he released the controls, which is one of the big hazards of hopping out of planes like that.  It's easy to second guess his bailout technique since the WWII standard for such a situation seems to be (based on historical accounts I've read) to climb up, slow down, jettison the canopy, roll inverted, release seat belt and fall free.  But that assumes that the plane is flyable enough to do all that.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 10:37:35 PM by eagl »
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Offline eagl

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Re: P51 colides with Skyraider
« Reply #129 on: February 12, 2012, 10:50:37 PM »
As a side note, I found that I could get quite a bit of pitch control in the T-37 just from the trim tab, with the control stick held frozen in place.  Nose down trim deflects the trim tab UP, which is the same as moving a very small elevator up.  Nose up trim runs the trim tab DOWN.  So if the elevator control cables are completely stuck, you can get a small amount of pitch authority just from running the trim tab.  This is very useful to know in the event that the controls ice up so badly that they can't be moved...  If the trim tab is not yet frozen in place then the plane can be maneuvered by careful trim inputs until the plane is out of the icing condition.

I also read about a small cargo carrier who grossly oversped and then over-G'd his plane after blacking out due to dumping cockpit pressurization before putting on his oxygen mask.  He ripped off most of the elevator and ailerons, and landed using just a tiny piece of the elevator and trim tabs that hadn't ripped off.

For you private pilots out there, give it a try...  Firmly hold the stick/yoke and rudders in the exact same position while making small trim inputs.  The plane will move in the opposite direction of the trim input.  Right aileron trim should give a left rolling motion, nose up trim should make the plane pitch down a bit, etc.  For "fun", see how much you can change the trimmed speed away from a normal cruise speed, using trim alone while holding the controls against the pressure.  Do it slowly though, to avoid large control forces, and do it at a high enough altitude that you can have some altitude deviations.  And don't try this while going fast...  The hinges and linkages for the trim tabs are probably not designed for full deflection into the wind at high speed with a stationary control surface for lengthy periods of time.  They shouldn't rip off but be careful not to exceed operating limits.  We all know what happens to a mustang when the elevator trim tab gets ripped off after being forced beyond design limits...
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Offline colmbo

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Re: P51 colides with Skyraider
« Reply #130 on: February 12, 2012, 10:59:14 PM »
The plane will move in the opposite direction of the trim input

For pitch this depends on the stab/elevator/trim system.  On a Cessna 182 (early model), 180 or 185 the stab is trimmed with a jackscrew at the leading edge so up in up and down is down.

Good suggestion to try flying with a locked yoke.  I had done some practice along those lines before getting a jammed elevator in a 206.  Having "been there already" it took some of the stress out until I got things worked out.
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Offline icepac

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Re: P51 colides with Skyraider
« Reply #131 on: February 13, 2012, 07:46:49 AM »
I believe the bulkhead that was pinched had both the trim cables and the normal control cables passing through it.

Offline cpxxx

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Re: P51 colides with Skyraider
« Reply #132 on: February 13, 2012, 01:02:00 PM »
Some interesting comments eagl, on the point of using the trim. I must practice that in case one of my skydivers wraps his chute on my tail. On the particular aircraft I fly the trim moves the whole stabiliser.

On the accident itself, clearly a lot of people will have learned or re-learned hard lessons.

This interests me:
Quote
Safety Recommendation 2011-083
It is recommended that the Civil Aviation Authority considers, where a parachute is worn as safety equipment, whether the provision of an automatic means of operating the parachute would provide a safety benefit.
Obviously this comment relates to the fact of the pilot hitting the tail on the way past. Potentially he may have been sufficiently incapacitated that he was unable to open his chute. Of course parachutes routinely had AADs (Automatic Activation Devices) these days. But I can see a serious flaw in fitting one to pilot safety chutes. AADs are designed to open the parachute if it detects a high rate descent below a certain altitude.

But that can also happen inside the aircraft. When returning with jumpers either the AADs are switched off or the rate of descent is moderated. It happened to me once, I'm not a skydiver but was in the back wearing a student rig as is the legal requirement when travelling in a jump plane. The jumpers got out and I closed the door, fortunately. The boss was flying. He's also an experienced skydiver but he forgot I was wearing a student rig and dived towards the ground as usual. Bang, my paracute opened. All very amusing and expensively embarrassing for the boss. But if the door had been open the potential for disaster was obvious.

If an AAD is fitted to a pilot's chute, there has to be some way of disabling it for normal manoeuvres yet ensuring it works when the pilot bails out but not so soon that it opens before the pilot is clear of the aircraft. Not impossible of course. But another layer of complication. Maybe not practical.

Offline GNucks

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Re: P51 colides with Skyraider
« Reply #133 on: February 13, 2012, 01:35:35 PM »


It's good to see this guy has great influence in this board.

I'd have bailed too. If I'm flying along doing my own thing and then BANG! my whole A/C is shaken and I'm right above the ground all I'd be thinking is "F*** this I'm out!" Captain Hindsight can come along later and tell me what I could've done to save my plane, maybe that will make everything better.

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Offline eagl

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Re: P51 colides with Skyraider
« Reply #134 on: February 13, 2012, 02:28:01 PM »
(Image removed from quote.)

It's good to see this guy has great influence in this board.

I'd have bailed too. If I'm flying along doing my own thing and then BANG! my whole A/C is shaken and I'm right above the ground all I'd be thinking is "F*** this I'm out!" Captain Hindsight can come along later and tell me what I could've done to save my plane, maybe that will make everything better.

After the investigation is over, there is great value to acknowledging the investigation results, and then running through what-if hypothetical scenarios.  It a pilot thing, certainly it's a fighter pilot thing, and it's enhanced by the presence of an open bar and a small group of colleagues/friends.

It might go like this...

Scenario goes exactly as it occurred, but what if...  What if the mustang appeared to be willing to climb after the impact.  Would there have been any opportunity to do a controllability check?  Let's talk about that.  How high would be "safe"?  Would the potential for landing the plane outweigh the possibility that even if the plane seemed flyable, it might simply come apart at any moment?  There were a couple dozen similar aircraft with pilots with thousands of hours of experience.  Would the presence of a chase ship have led to more, or less, effort into trying to land?  What about a belly landing, if the hydraulics were gone and the plane could be slowed to a reasonable touchdown speed?  The stang appears to naturally pitch up at very high speeds so would it become too nose-heavy to fly at low speed, or vice versa?  Would any chase pilot have the experience to know the answer, or know, from looking at the external damage, know what was going on inside the plane with the control linkages?

So it might go like that.  It's not second guessing the pilot...  The investigation already did that and we can form our opinion about both the ramifications of the FACTS from the investigation, as well as quibble about the conclusions drawn from those facts.  For example, my opinion is that the skyraider pilot royally screwed the pooch and since in his own statements he said he thought it was normal and OK to go blind during the pitchout, he never should have been in the formation to begin with.  Further, I question both the evaluator pilot who certified the skyraider pilot for the flyby just before the event, and the investigator's failure to place blame on the pre-flight planning/briefing that led to a scenario where both mishap pilots lost sight of each other yet were still required to maneuver in relation to each other.  So those are my own conclusions.  No second-guessing the actions of the pilots after the mishap occurred, not in the slightest bit.

But in my experience, this mishap was both preventable and forseeable, and I think that both the skyraider's failure to maintain sight and the mustang pilot's failure to properly plan and brief the maneuver should both be considered causal. 

Further, I think there is value to what-if the scenario without saying the word "should", to brainstorm about alternative actions both before and after the mishap.  If I was the flight lead and that type of formation pitchout was pre-determined by someone else, how would I have planned and briefed it better?  If I was the skyraider pilot, what techniques could I have used to keep sight?  If I was the mustang driver and the situation had any number of minor variations that didn't lead to an immediate bailout decision, what actions would be reasonable to take in order to see if the plane could be safely recovered?

Those things are worth talking about, because they might either prevent future mishaps or aid in handling other mishaps in the future.  But second-guessing the actions after the mishap had occurred, saying that one or both pilots "should" have done something different?  You won't hear that sort of nonsense from me.  I'm glad they lived and from that perspective they both did everything perfectly right after the collision.
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