The Inequity of it all

[Rich52]

In the MA I could possibly live with the IL2 being bananaed by F3 removal if it wasnt for the fact the A-20 still has it, as do other small or medium bombers. The exuse that the IL2 was being used as a fighter to much was total B.S. cause not only wasnt it but it was, and is, helpless against fighters with any skills whatsoever.

Tankers just wanted their way without the horror of actually being killed by the wars #1 air tank killer. Its much harder setting up against tanks now and the plane still wallows like a pig. Even the trim feels different.

About 5,000 K/Ds now compared to about 30,000 LW K/Ds two years ago. I'd bet far more of the kills are now done with its little bombs. We still dont have the PTABs that devestated German armor in the war. Look at these pathetic numbers http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/killsbyp.php?sortby=0&selectTour=LWTour138&pindex=50 and then tell me the IL2 "isnt" dead in Aces High ?

[kvuo75]

In the MA I could possibly live with the IL2 being bananaed by F3 removal if it wasnt for the fact the A-20 still has it, as do other small or medium bombers. The exuse that the IL2 was being used as a fighter to much was total B.S. cause not only wasnt it but it was, and is, helpless against fighters with any skills whatsoever.

Tankers just wanted their way without the horror of actually being killed by the wars #1 air tank killer. Its much harder setting up against tanks now and the plane still wallows like a pig. Even the trim feels different.

I disagree, I dont notice any change in handling. Never used F3, so setting up is the same to me.

About 5,000 K/Ds now compared to about 30,000 LW K/Ds two years ago.

I suspect (have not looked it up tho) it's killing fewer gv's because there's fewer gv's driving around. I know I personally find fewer, thats why my IL2 usage is down.

[SEseph]

In the MA I could possibly live with the IL2 being bananaed by F3 removal if it wasnt for the fact the A-20 still has it, as do other small or medium bombers. The exuse that the IL2 was being used as a fighter to much was total B.S. cause not only wasnt it but it was, and is, helpless against fighters with any skills whatsoever.

You obviously know nothing about this topic. Talk to GHI and see how impotent he is with the IL2 as a fighter. Many others are the same way. They will put you 6 feet under with out a worry while you try to hide behind your book of Invented Facts.

[Rich52]

You obviously know nothing about this topic. Talk to GHI and see how impotent he is with the IL2 as a fighter. Many others are the same way. They will put you 6 feet under with out a worry while you try to hide behind your book of Invented Facts.

LOL, this is a funny one. Back when GHI and I were flying the IL2 we would both kill hundreds every month. Mine were mostly armor, his were many airplanes too. Last month he killed two fighters with it. Two years ago I had 350 kills in it , of which 284 were vehicles, and he had over 600, most of which were other planes. EVERY fighter killed by it did something dumb, like HO or was greedily vulching. GHI was the only one who used the plane mostly as a fighter. I saw him hundreds of times defending air strips and towns killing planes flown by dummies who not only didnt know you shouldnt HO an IL2 but also didnt know they should maybe outclimb it, out dive it, outroll it, or out turn it instead.

To say the IL2 is a potent air to air fighter is a laugh. Even with F3. But I only flew it for years so what would I know.

I suspect (have not looked it up tho) it's killing fewer gv's because there's fewer gv's driving around. I know I personally find fewer, thats why my IL2 usage is down.

Thats true. You see far fewer spawns to airbases, and only one LW map now. That and almost nobody ever flew thing thing to a GV base. But even when GVs are around Im seeing far fewer IL2s. The plane is just more unpopular now. The A-20 meanwhile, despite far fewer players now and only one map, is killing the same numbers as it did two years ago. Why fly an IL2 when you can fly an A-20 with 8 500 lb bombs WITH F3?

Never used F3, so setting up is the same to me.

Used to hear this all the time even back when we had 20 to 30 with triple digit kils in it.

[SEseph]

LOL, this is a funny one. Back when GHI and I were flying the IL2 we would both kill hundreds every month. Mine were mostly armor, his were many airplanes too. Last month he killed two fighters with it. Two years ago I had 350 kills in it , of which 284 were vehicles, and he had over 600, most of which were other planes. EVERY fighter killed by it did something dumb, like HO or was greedily vulching. GHI was the only one who used the plane mostly as a fighter. I saw him hundreds of times defending air strips and towns killing planes flown by dummies who not only didnt know you shouldnt HO an IL2 but also didnt know they should maybe outclimb it, out dive it, outroll it, or out turn it instead.

To say the IL2 is a potent air to air fighter is a laugh. Even with F3. But I only flew it for years so what would I know.

Thats true. You see far fewer spawns to airbases, and only one LW map now. That and almost nobody ever flew thing thing to a GV base. But even when GVs are around Im seeing far fewer IL2s. The plane is just more unpopular now. The A-20 meanwhile, despite far fewer players now and only one map, is killing the same numbers as it did two years ago. Why fly an IL2 when you can fly an A-20 with 8 500 lb bombs WITH F3?
 Used to hear this all the time even back when we had 20 to 30 with triple digit kils in it.

I had written a good (or I thought it was) response until my son came over to the keyboard and smacked it so I'm not rewriting it lol.

I think differently because it's the pilot, not the plane most often. As well as the one who makes the most errors loses.

[Ack-Ack]

You obviously know nothing about this topic. Talk to GHI and see how impotent he is with the IL2 as a fighter. Many others are the same way. They will put you 6 feet under with out a worry while you try to hide behind your book of Invented Facts.

Richie isn't one to let facts get in the way of a hyperbole.

ack-ack

[grizz441]

You obviously know nothing about this topic. Talk to GHI and see how impotent he is with the IL2 as a fighter. Many others are the same way. They will put you 6 feet under with out a worry while you try to hide behind your book of Invented Facts.

Hey that book is a good read but doesn't provide much cover to block 37mm rounds from an IL2.

[Lusche]

About 5,000 K/Ds now compared to about 30,000 LW K/Ds two years ago. I'd bet far more of the kills are now done with its little bombs. We still dont have the PTABs that devestated German armor in the war. Look at these pathetic numbers http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/killsbyp.php?sortby=0&selectTour=LWTour138&pindex=50 and then tell me the IL2 "isnt" dead in Aces High ?

I do.

You can't simply compare absolute numbers from 2 years ago to last tour, because total kill numbers for the tour are also much lower now.
If you want to check the statistical impact of a change, you have to look at the numbers just before and after that change, and some times after that because players often take some time to adjust.

You will then see that overall Il-2 usage took indeed a big hit - but it's far from "dead" now, particularly in it's original anti-tank role:

The top airbone killers of the Panzer IV:


A reduction by 1/3rd, but still #2. Doesn't look dead to me. 

[Changeup]

Never get sloppy pitching to Lusche....he cranks weak-arse analysis out of the yard.  He just went yard on ya rookie!  Lol

[Rich52]

I do.

You can't simply compare absolute numbers from 2 years ago to last tour, because total kill numbers for the tour are also much lower now.
If you want to check the statistical impact of a change, you have to look at the numbers just before and after that change, and some times after that because players often take some time to adjust.

You will then see that overall Il-2 usage took indeed a big hit - but it's far from "dead" now, particularly in it's original anti-tank role:

The top airbone killers of the Panzer IV:
(Image removed from quote.)

A reduction by 1/3rd, but still #2. Doesn't look dead to me. 

All true, but norrowly focused. The IV is childs play to kill in a IL2, you dont even need the 37mms to punch thru parts of it. You could probably kill one with 0.50s. You can kill the thing from the side, the rear, the top, the front, and from any angle. Look at these armor thickness numbers. Lol, the thing is made out of aluminum foil.

Rear Turret: 20/0
 Rear Upper Hull: 20/9
 Rear Lower Hull: 20/10
 Turret Top / Bottom: 10/83
 Upper Hull Top / Bottom: 12/84
 Lower Hull Top / Bottom: 10/90
 Gun Mantlet: 35/0
 
 Rear Turret: 30/10
 Rear Upper Hull: 20/12
 Rear Lower Hull: 20/9
 Turret Top / Bottom: 10/83
 Upper Hull Top / Bottom: 12/85
 Lower Hull Top / Bottom: 10/90
 Gun Mantlet: 50/0

The total numbers mean very little to me. I not only see far fewer in the air now but without even counting numbers just look at how many kills individuals are ringing up now. Guys who I remember killing quite a bit in it that are still in the game.  http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/killsbyp.php?sortby=0&selectTour=LWTour138&pindex=50 compared to back when the IL2 still had F3 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/killsbyp.php?sortby=0&selectTour=LWTour114&pindex=50 There was much higher individual scoring.

Never get sloppy pitching to Lusche....he cranks weak-arse analysis out of the yard.  He just went yard on ya rookie!  Lol

Im glad you have a man hero to look up to, every boy should. But I assume campaign 135 was the last tour the IL2 had F3 cause thats the last tour it rang up any decent kills. And also BTW the last tour Lusche ever flew it in, "tho F3 had nothing to do with it Im sure." So in 135 the IL2 had about 13,000 k/d and one month later in 136 it had about 4,300 ? And since you never flew it again Lusche without F3 we can pretty much assume its "dead" to you. I suspect by looking at current users its pretty much "dead" to all the score guys.

So while its not totally "dead", except to Lusche, we can pretty much call it gelded. Such is the fate for the most famous tank killing airplane in the war, and such is the hypocrosy of leaving other attack/bombers with bombbays and rear gunners to retain F3.

[Lusche]

All true, but norrowly focused. The IV is childs play to kill in a IL2, you dont even need the 37mms to punch thru parts of it.

Very flawed logic.
The Panzer IV is by far the most used tank in AH, and especially most used when rolling the enemy bases. If generally nobody would up it to kill tanks due to F3 removal, there wouldn't be much Panzer been killed either. Also I do not know how no F3 would have any impact on armor penetration. If F3 makes it more difficult to find tanks and players stop using it because of that, there is no reason why it should impact Panzer IV kills more than other tank kills.

. And also BTW the last tour Lusche ever flew it in, "tho F3 had nothing to do with it Im sure." So in 135 the IL2 had about 13,000 k/d and one month later in 136 it had about 4,300 ? And since you never flew it again Lusche without F3 we can pretty much assume its "dead" to you. I suspect by looking at current users its pretty much "dead" to all the score guys.

Nice selective usage of stats again.



Cleary evident how this score guy was racking up hundreds of kills in the Il-2 only before suddenly abandoning the plane after F3 was removed. I just wonder if F3 was also gone from tour 128-130, when I also wasn't flying the Il-2 for three months in a row.

So while its not totally "dead", except to Lusche, we can pretty much call it gelded.

It is STILL #2 airborne tank killer. That's a simple fact. You are using the term "dead "in a very creative way.



Edit: As for "they only are used vs panzers":



Kills by Il-2 went from 8.65% to 7.67%

[Rich52]

Cleary evident how this score guy was racking up hundreds of kills in the Il-2 only before suddenly abandoning the plane after F3 was removed.

I know you never flew it much, tho you scored well when you did. Point is after losing F3 you didnt fly it at all.

Very flawed logic.
The Panzer IV is by far the most used tank in AH, and especially most used when rolling the enemy bases. If generally nobody would up it to kill tanks due to F3 removal, there wouldn't be much Panzer been killed either. Also I do not know how no F3 would have any impact on armor penetration. If F3 makes it more difficult to find tanks and players stop using it because of that, there is no reason why it should impact Panzer IV kills more than other tank kills.

Nothing flawed about it. The IV is so defensless you can fly level to it and kill it. The other tanks, most of all Tigers, T-34s, Panthers, even Sherms, you have to build up Alt while lining up the plane correctly, "all the while keeping a 360% view cause the Stormbird is so helpless against fighters", and then you have to come down at a steep angle and punch thru the top armor of many of the tanks. The NS-37s are only rated at 50mm at 200 yrds. Without the F3 it makes the entire process much more difficult. Since the plane cant roll worth a darn you have to rudder to setup the shot and makes placement far more difficult. The stats all reflect this and since you avoided the plane since it lost F3 how could you even be argueing this. Ive killed thousands of tanks in the thing, maybe my point has some merit "ya think"?

Forget the P-4. Its made out of paper machete. In tour 135 the Stormbird killed 32 Tigers, 346 T-34/85s, 130 T-34/76s, 51 Panthers, 374 Sherman 76s, and 332 Sherman 75s. In 136, minus F3, it killed 8 Tigers, 78 T-34/85s, 41 T-34/76s, 25 Panthers, 127 Sherm 76s, and 154 Sherm 154s.

Is any of this adding up yet ?

[Lusche]

I know you never flew it much, tho you scored well when you did. Point is after losing F3 you didnt fly it at all.

What point? I'm flying the Il-2 on and off for years.What exactly are you trying to say? That I do not fly it anymore because of missing F3?  I often have (as shown above) months of not flying it. So what does that prove?

Nothing flawed about it. The IV is so defensless you can fly level to it and kill it. The other tanks, most of all Tigers, T-34s, Panthers, even Sherms, you have to build up Alt while lining up the plane correctly, "all the while keeping a 360% view cause the Stormbird is so helpless against fighters", and then you have to come down at a steep angle and punch thru the top armor of many of the tanks. The NS-37s are only rated at 50mm at 200 yrds. Without the F3 it makes the entire process much more difficult. Since the plane cant roll worth a darn you have to rudder to setup the shot and makes placement far more difficult. The stats all reflect this and since you avoided the plane since it lost F3 how could you even be argueing this. Ive killed thousands of tanks in the thing, maybe my point has some merit "ya think"?




Forget the P-4. Its made out of paper machete. In tour 135 the Stormbird killed 32 Tigers, 346 T-34/85s, 130 T-34/76s, 51 Panthers, 374 Sherman 76s, and 332 Sherman 75s. In 136, minus F3, it killed 8 Tigers, 78 T-34/85s, 41 T-34/76s, 25 Panthers, 127 Sherm 76s, and 154 Sherm 154s.

Is any of this adding up yet ?

You are really getting desperate now.

You mad a claim that isn't supported by numbers at all.  The overhwelming majority of killed tanks in AH are M4(76) and Panzer IV. With both tanks, the Il-2 usage took a hit, but the plane is still #3 and #2 airborne killer. How much you try to twist and grab straws and continue to use absolute instead of relative numbers (which is, simply put, a major methodological blunder), this is not a "dead" plane in the AT role.

[Raphael]

HURRICANE IID!!!

[Rich52]

What point? I'm flying the Il-2 on and off for years.What exactly are you trying to say? That I do not fly it anymore because of missing F3?  I often have (as shown above) months of not flying it. So what does that prove?

We are reading the same graph arent we ? It appears the 3 of the 4 months you didnt fly the IL2 before the F3 ended you didnt fly any of the 3 planes much. Since the F3 ended you went almost 100% Hurri-D, flying it quite a bit. Really it looks to me like you dont want to fly the IL2 anymore, tho I suspect tanks have nothing to do with it. A Hurri-D is far better at avoiding/engaging enemy fighters then a F3-less IL2. And far better at protecting your K/D.

With both tanks, the Il-2 usage took a hit, but the plane is still #3 and #2 airborne killer

Yeah but there are only 3 legitimate tank killer aircraft lol You can add the Yak-T except it doesnt really kill any tanks. So you have the B-25H, the IL2, and the Hurri-D. So being #3 or #2 means exactly what ?

You mad a claim that isn't supported by numbers at all.  The overhwelming majority of killed tanks in AH are M4(76) and Panzer IV. With both tanks, the Il-2 usage took a hit, but the plane is still #3 and #2 airborne killer.

Say that again slowly to yourself.

I think you got pawned here Lusche. Further argument is pointless.................... ..