At the gun range Saturday

[Dago]

75% of more of any pistol practice can and SHOULD be done dry-firing or dummy rounds.  You can train your fire control/trigger finger very inexpensively, you're right.

Also, I'm not sure if it was Dago or another slagging thigh rig holsters.  Every Movie/TV show has tards running around using these rigs.  They are even more than common in the real world.  Nobody I know uses them for one reason - when you're running, it's almost impossible to draw from a holster that is moving with your leg...go ahead and try it if you have a leg rig, try and run without slowing or almost stopping and get by your retention system and draw.  Thigh rig is sort of ok for dodads that you don't need to get to quickly, like detachable suppressors and the like, but I still can't stand them, and think they are beyond useless.


This whole "7 yards 21 feet" thing is what gun magazine writers like Mossad Aboob talk about when they start jabbering about knife fighting , always good for laughs no matter which direction they subject goes.  Everybody is convinced that at 7 yards, and 7 yards only, a knife fighter will kill a firearm equipped opponent every time as though it's some rule set in stone by the gods.  


Also, I find most people who talk about kicking bellybutton on the range usually aren't even gripping their weapon properly, which isn't their fault if they haven't had an formal training and just had Pa teach em the ropes.  Horrific muzzle control, fingers on triggers when they shouldn't be, sweeping other people with their muzzles...I see it all from self styled experts who've been "shootin fer years, gots me 20,000 rounds a year downrange uh huh".  

    Glad someone had something to offer that shows sense and experience.   Yes, you caught my drift about the thigh strapping rig.  A chest mount when geared up works better, and a good belt holster doesn't need a lower strap when worn on the right belt, whether IWB or out.

I also believe that with the average range hero, he/she could not draw and bring the weapon into action before someone at 7 yards or closer could close the distance, no matter how dang good they are at shooting a huge silhouette at 7 yards.

[Dago]

I like the challenge of shooting pistols at 25 yards... Trigger control, sight picture, steady, two-handed grip.

Even old revolvers can be very accurate, especially shooting precision hand-loads.

My Uberti Remington 1875 is deadly accurate...

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Even better, my Rossi .357 Magnum revolver prints exceptional groups. Yeah, I like revolvers...

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Dang nice shooting, glad someone realizes a handgun can be fired past 7 yards, and learning to do it at 25 yards that well means you have practiced.

Now, about the guys who say they will be taking a "carbine" to a 25 yard gunfight, I just wonder how you get a bad guy to schedule the date, time and distance so you know when to take your "carbine" with you?  

[Widewing]

75% of more of any pistol practice can and SHOULD be done dry-firing or dummy rounds.  You can train your fire control/trigger finger very inexpensively, you're right.

Excellent advice! I load Lyman .38 Special Snap Caps into my .357 Rossi and practice, practice and practice some more. Practice trigger control, practice point shooting, practice getting out of the holster clean and quick and practice reloading... These are perishable skills....

[Dago]

Excellent advice! I load Lyman .38 Special Snap Caps into my .357 Rossi and practice, practice and practice some more. Practice trigger control, practice point shooting, practice getting out of the holster clean and quick and practice reloading... These are perishable skills....

Yup, exactly, if someone actually wants to CCW and not have it be a liability, they have to do just as you say.  Snap caps are good for practice.

[katanaso]

Also, I'm not sure if it was Dago or another slagging thigh rig holsters.  Every Movie/TV show has tards running around using these rigs.  They are even more than common in the real world.  Nobody I know uses them for one reason - when you're running, it's almost impossible to draw from a holster that is moving with your leg...go ahead and try it if you have a leg rig, try and run without slowing or almost stopping and get by your retention system and draw.  Thigh rig is sort of ok for dodads that you don't need to get to quickly, like detachable suppressors and the like, but I still can't stand them, and think they are beyond useless.

I've rarely seen thigh rigs at the ranges here, but lots of cops are using them.  It seems that there's been a big shift to thigh rigs and BDU pants with many local police.

Interestingly though, I had a couple of deputies at my house a few weeks ago to ask about a neighbor, and one of them had his pistol in a chest mount on his vest.  I noticed his vest also had SWAT written on it, so I'm guessing that carried over from whatever service he was in.

The only person I know with a thigh rig only uses it when he goes hunting, and it's just for convenience.

[PFactorDave]

I've never liked thigh rigs, for reasons already discussed.  You just can't run and access your weapon at the same time.  Also, from the training I have had, drawing from a belt or paddle holster leads better to a nice tight high ready position before presenting to target.

[SmokinLoon]

Practice at any range you want, just make sure you practice at multiple ranges and from a multitude of firing positions using both hands to fire with.  Your "off" hand is just as important as your "strong" hand.  Practice with both. 

Know your pistol.  You know capability.  Know that you are mortal.  All the range time in the world does zilch once you get into a combat situation.  Using simunitions taught me a lot about how people react under stress.  One of the best shooters in the sheriff's office where I was could hit jack once the stress level went up a notch or two.

Most of the chest thumpers are the one who cower when the lead flies.  That isnt a slam, it is natural and it it an instinct that needs to be unlearned because sometimes the best defense is going on offense (be the hunter not the hunted).  But I always got a kick out of big-tough commando types who dove for cover while I was moving forward returning fire in our "active shooter" training, etc.

[Golfer]

My point all along has been I'm not going to knock someone for shooting at 7 yards and I'm certainly not going to discredit it as meaningful training especially if the alternative is none.  There IS value to firing at close range just as there is value at firing at longer ranges. I would put more value on failure to stop drills, loading drills, weapon failure drills and the simple mechanics of drawing and coming ready with your weapon with your target hanging 7 yards away than taking carefully aimed shots at 25 yards. No doubt about it.

You're trying too hard, Dago.  There really isn't much in the way a day to day CCW permit holder will encounter where taking longer shots and the time spent practicing them will benefit them more than running failure drills up close.  You're not going to be engaging targets at 25 yards away and that's the point I'm making.  You know that.  If your average citizen only has X amount of time and rounds to practice I'd rather see that time and those rounds spent doing them good for what they might encounter and teaching them habits that will serve them when they come under that stress.  I stand by the statement of if you know you're going to be shooting at someone or something at ranges in excess of25 yards then a pistol is the wrong primary weapon.

Is there a benefit to shooting longer ranges with pistols?  Absolutely.  Is there a benefit to shooting accurately at longer ranges?  Absolutely.  Do the benefits of shooting at long range outweigh the benefits of the average citizen shooting up close which is where they're most likely to engage a threat during the course of their life as a concealed carry permit holder?  Certainly not enough to come on a cartoon airplane board and ridicule them for it.

So day to day I carry my pistols be they .45, .380, 9mm or .40 on a particular day.  When the time comes to shoot hogs out come the rifles.  When the time comes to shoot at zombies, out come the rifles and carbines.  When the time comes to roll in the dirt and shoot steel, paper and cardboard against the clock it's shotguns, rifles and pistols.

It's a whole different ball game when someone is shooting under stress and I can't emphasize that enough.  Shooting against the clock, running and regular pressure from competition is one thing.  Shooting when your life is on the line or you're being shot at are completely different.  I like to think I'm going to benefit from tactical pistol classes if (insert spiritual being here, forbid) it happens to me.  Much more so than trying to spend my time trying to draw on bead on someone where my "discipline" has taught me not to fire until I have thoroughly aimed/delayed/died.

[Jayhawk]

My point all along has been I'm not going to knock someone for shooting at 7 yards and I'm certainly not going to discredit it as meaningful training especially if the alternative is none.  There IS value to firing at close range just as there is value at firing at longer ranges. I would put more value on failure to stop drills, loading drills, weapon failure drills and the simple mechanics of drawing and coming ready with your weapon with your target hanging 7 yards away than taking carefully aimed shots at 25 yards. No doubt about it.

You're trying too hard, Dago.  There really isn't much in the way a day to day CCW permit holder will encounter where taking longer shots and the time spent practicing them will benefit them more than running failure drills up close.  You're not going to be engaging targets at 25 yards away and that's the point I'm making.  You know that.  If your average citizen only has X amount of time and rounds to practice I'd rather see that time and those rounds spent doing them good for what they might encounter and teaching them habits that will serve them when they come under that stress.  I stand by the statement of if you know you're going to be shooting at someone or something at ranges in excess of25 yards then a pistol is the wrong primary weapon.

Is there a benefit to shooting longer ranges with pistols?  Absolutely.  Is there a benefit to shooting accurately at longer ranges?  Absolutely.  Do the benefits of shooting at long range outweigh the benefits of the average citizen shooting up close which is where they're most likely to engage a threat during the course of their life as a concealed carry permit holder?  Certainly not enough to come on a cartoon airplane board and ridicule them for it.

So day to day I carry my pistols be they .45, .380, 9mm or .40 on a particular day.  When the time comes to shoot hogs out come the rifles.  When the time comes to shoot at zombies, out come the rifles and carbines.  When the time comes to roll in the dirt and shoot steel, paper and cardboard against the clock it's shotguns, rifles and pistols.

It's a whole different ball game when someone is shooting under stress and I can't emphasize that enough.  Shooting against the clock, running and regular pressure from competition is one thing.  Shooting when your life is on the line or you're being shot at are completely different.  I like to think I'm going to benefit from tactical pistol classes if (insert spiritual being here, forbid) it happens to me.  Much more so than trying to spend my time trying to draw on bead on someone where my "discipline" has taught me not to fire until I have thoroughly aimed/delayed/died.

Well said.

[Gman]

Agree with everything posted on this page.

Widewing had the best 'word' so far though - perishable.  All weapons skills are VERY perishable ones, and like a sword that needs a wetstone regularly, they ability to fly small bits of lead and steel through targets can only be maintained by consistent, regular, and repetitive practice.

Bank Miller was one of my first instructors for dedicated pistol training about 13 years ago (Bank ran the FBI's weapons training program for years prior to designing and maintaining the Air Marshall pistol program).  He told me that in his opinion from long experience, after the human mind and body combine to do a task with a handgun 20 thousand times, it will then begin the process of becoming "muscle memory" for lack of a better term.  20,000 rounds of pistol ammo is expensive for average and even non-average Joe, so doing dry fire and dry run drills repeatedly and consistently can speed a shooter along to this blissful place of "not thinking about it".


Widewing, I shoot at playing cards with my single action handguns as well!  I laughed when I saw those pics.  It makes me feel old-westish, without having to wear a cowboy hat or get all cowboy action shooter'd up.  My old shop was the Canadian distributor for all things Uberti for a while; absolutely love their single action revolvers, although I do enjoy the Ruger's as well, and they are both great values for the money.  If I ever have kids, although it's getting late in the game for that, their first pistol will be a good single action .22 cowboy style revolver.  


I also again can't stress the value of simmunition/air munition training as well.  The added pressure of shooting/drills vs a clock with spectators is multiplied be the square function when you start involving a small bit of stinging pain and proof of your failure while being observed by your counterparts .   If you ever get the chance to train with it, TAKE it, and if you don't, try and make it happen.  You won't be sorry, it's truly one of my favorite parts of any shooting course if it's part of the syllabus.  Also, if you get a chance to train on how to engage threats through vehicle and other windows, do the same.  There are very specific techniques to shooting through a window when you're close to it, and they are not only very practical, but a blast.  Holding your pistol's slide to the front while shooting a single round then manually cycling your weapon to reload isn't a skill that ANYONE will just pick up along the way - it requires training.  But does it ever work well.  It'll blast the passenger side window you're sitting beside into a zillion fragments when the muzzle is just barely touching it, and the full force of the explosion that is throwing the bullet is put into the glass by holding the pistol's slide ahead....try it if you get a chance, even against a cardboard IDPA target, and you'll see why it is so effective in removing the barrier you need to fire through.

Ah...there is always so much more to learn...I've found they more I've learned that I find out about even more things I need to train on.  If any of you get the chance to view Magpul's video's on pistol and carbine shooting, please do so.  While I don't agree with everything they push, I personally agree with most, and both their instructors acknowledge this and even praise it, which while not totally rare in the tactical shooting world, is at least appreciated for such a commercial venture these DVD's are in the shooting world.  I 've trained with one of the instructors from Magpul in the past and IMO he is very VERY good at passing his knowledge onto others, as well as being very capable at what he does.  If anybody is interested at giving any of the DVD's a look, fire a PM at me and I can lend you mine as well as some of the stuff we used at SigArms Academy.  While there is no substitute for being on the range, I've found videos to be the "dry fire" version of an actual course, and not without value.

[Skyguns MKII]

[Gman]

Practice at any range you want, just make sure you practice at multiple ranges and from a multitude of firing positions using both hands to fire with.  Your "off" hand is just as important as your "strong" hand.  Practice with both.

Know your pistol.  You know capability.  Know that you are mortal.  All the range time in the world does zilch once you get into a combat situation.  Using simunitions taught me a lot about how people react under stress.  One of the best shooters in the sheriff's office where I was could hit jack once the stress level went up a notch or two.

Most of the chest thumpers are the one who cower when the lead flies.  That isnt a slam, it is natural and it it an instinct that needs to be unlearned because sometimes the best defense is going on offense (be the hunter not the hunted).  But I always got a kick out of big-tough commando types who dove for cover while I was moving forward returning fire in our "active shooter" training, etc.

Well said as well.

It's not so much an issue now as it once was, but training off hand stoppage/reload/etc drills weren't stressed nearly as much as they should have been.  Even reaching your spare magazines with your off hand with your armor and load bearing equipment is a challenge, especially if you aren't in good shape (the fatter you get, the harder it is to reach around your belly, go figure).  They're very awkward and  uncommon positions you need to use, not to mention shooting with your off hand is likely going to occur after you've either been shot or stuck in a bit of cover that is somewhat less than ideal.  But Loon is right, extremely important skills to develop and keep improving on.  Racking your slide off your belt/holster/bootheel and holding your weapon between your knees inverted are invaluable things to know and be able to put into practice.  Heck, even learning HOW to transition your weapon from strong side to weak is a skill-set all its own.


Also, Loon your bit about best defence being a quick offense reminded me of the first courses in my past about ambush/counter ambush, and how the safest you'll be is to rush forward OFF THE X of the ambush, which is contrary to every humans instinct when being fired upon, but after doing it umpteem times in training, one finds out it's correct.


Good thread so far, quite enjoyed it, keep it up you all.

P.S.  Somebody pray and tell Jesus in the above picture that he's breaking one of the cardinal rules by having his finger on the trigger.

[Groth]

 Must tell old story from my dad, stationed in germany late 45-46 as photographer, signal corps, prior to service in Marines in Korea...
 Local germans not allowed fire-arms, many farmers had problems with feral hogs tearing up crops..so 'hunting trips' were set up w/GI's...took 4x to someplace well outside Nurnberg, was given M2 carbine(yep, full auto w/tiny 15 rd mag).
 Had some kind of 'beater' with dogs chasing hogs down lane toward my 18 yo dad..when that 'big, ugly sonfa... came outta the brush headed my way I flipped it on full auto and  BLIP....'not sure how much of meat was left..he was only interested in gettin back to the house they where posted in...
 Back to topic at hand.

[Jayhawk]

So while we're talking guns, I'll throw a question out there.

Any tips for someone looking at getting into reloading?  I've been looking into it for a couple months but it's still quite overwhelming. Read some stuff online, and read through "The ABC's Of Reloading" by Bill Chevalier.  Start-up cost keeps adding up, not sure it's really worth it.

[LCCajun]

I have been a cop for 4 years now. We have to qualify shooting at 25yd targets while progressively moving in closer all the way to 2 yards. There are certain drills set up at the diff stations. At our 7 yard station we fire the bulk of our ammo. I remember in the academy our instructor was very very firm on us training at 7- yards the most. The reason is b/c most cop involved shootings take place at short distances. I know you think that it would be almost impossible to miss at 7 yards. I have a question for you though sir. Have you ran a true stress course and fired at 7 yards. You may not miss but I can almost guarantee your grouping is going to be scattered alto more then just a regular day at the range. I do want to make sure that you noticed that we do shoot at 25 yards, but most of the course is in much shorter distances. Also lets remember that training doesn't stop at just being able to fire and hit your target. Being able to hit your target doesn't mean jack if you can't even unholster your weapon. DON"T forget to use your offhand also. We have to fire from kneeling postions and I remember from laying on our back to. There is more then just being able to hit a target lets not forget that.

I didn't see who said it but they were right on train at whatever distance you want just make sure to keep training is all that matters. For when you stop training you are just doing an injustice to yourself.

One of our instructors had a saying Keep these walls bare. Not getting into the whole meaning but in loose translation is only bad things can happen if you stop training.

P.S. as for the thigh holsters I will never carry one while on duty.