Author Topic: 50 cal....  (Read 4116 times)

Offline bustr

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Re: 50 cal....
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2011, 04:02:10 PM »
How about this.....
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bustr - POTW 1st Wing


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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: 50 cal....
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2011, 04:06:22 PM »
mmmmmm ... data :aok
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: 50 cal....
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2011, 07:46:57 AM »
How about this.....
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That stuff is always good to see!!!  Thanks for sharing!
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline gyrene81

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Re: 50 cal....
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2011, 08:22:01 AM »
How about this.....
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doesn't look like .50 cal will penetrate tank tracks from an airplane at any range...and .30 cal will just scratch the rust. and depending on the construction, even the road wheels could be safe.
jarhed  
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Offline Widewing

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Re: 50 cal....
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2011, 10:41:28 AM »
doesn't look like .50 cal will penetrate tank tracks from an airplane at any range...and .30 cal will just scratch the rust. and depending on the construction, even the road wheels could be safe.

A couple of things to consider.... WWII vintage tank tracks were not as strong as spec armor plate. They were usually inferior to common 1010 cold rolled steel. A .50 cal AP round will easily penetrate 0.5" of cold rolled steel. A second thing to consider is that deck armor of many tanks was 25mm or less in thickness. This means engines and fuel tanks may be at risk. Especially considering the erosive effect of many hits in a relatively small area. A heavy concentration of .50 hits can also shoot off radio antennas, damage optics, lights and anything else not armored.

An example of not penetrating armor, yet disabling a target can be found in the naval battle off of Samar in the P.I., October 1944. The USS Johnston scored between sixty and eighty 5"/38 hits on a Japanese Heavy Cruiser. Not a single round penetrated the Cruiser's armor. Yet, her superstructure was wrecked, the bridge demolished, central fire control knocked out and fires raged in several locations. She was effectively out of the battle, yet her vital engineering spaces, magazines and main guns were undamaged. Indeed, in the same fight, the Jeep carrier White Plains disabled another Cruiser with a single 5" hit. That round magically found the torpedo tubes amidships and caused two of them to detonate.

I suppose that my point is that one can never rule out anything....
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Widewing

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Offline gyrene81

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Re: 50 cal....
« Reply #50 on: August 27, 2011, 11:34:04 AM »
i get your point but we're not talking about the tank armor widewing, it's the tracks. the german tank treads were generally forged steel with some areas of each link measuring nearly 2 inches thick depending on the vehicle they were made for. obviously, concentrated fire on a thin spot would cause breakage but, considering the speed and angle of an airplane attack, getting that kind of accurate machine gun fire on a small area that is under the tank would be akin to buying just one powerball ticket and winning.
jarhed  
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Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline icepac

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Re: 50 cal....
« Reply #51 on: August 27, 2011, 01:33:03 PM »
The tank tracks were stronger than the armor.

The armor was not forged and welded up...........well....except for the front hull armor of many T34s that were forged by a rolling mill.

Ferry Porsche covers tank armor and engine testing quite a bit in his book "we at porsche".

Offline bj229r

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Re: 50 cal....
« Reply #52 on: August 28, 2011, 06:07:45 PM »
I have a complaint in the same general area. All US late-war planes carried the same .50? Assuming the answer is yes....why is a P51 invariably the only plane that can de-wing me at 1.0k, yet no other US rides can do that?
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Offline icepac

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Re: 50 cal....
« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2011, 06:26:03 PM »
The b17 can de-wing you beyond d1500

Offline Karnak

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Re: 50 cal....
« Reply #54 on: August 28, 2011, 07:15:16 PM »
I have a complaint in the same general area. All US late-war planes carried the same .50? Assuming the answer is yes....why is a P51 invariably the only plane that can de-wing me at 1.0k, yet no other US rides can do that?
Confirmation bias?  Shooting platform?

Every air mounted Browning .50 in AH refers to the same exact piece of code as I understand it.  I seem to recall HiTech stating that.
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: 50 cal....
« Reply #55 on: August 28, 2011, 07:32:11 PM »
There is the aircraft M2 .50 cal MG, and then there is the ground vehicle M2 .50 cal MG. 

Simply do a damage test on offline hangers and see just how different the P40, P47, and P51 .50 cals truly are (they are no different).  Yes, the damage dealt to a OBJ is not the same as vs aircraft, but there is a correlation. 
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Offline Widewing

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Re: 50 cal....
« Reply #56 on: August 28, 2011, 11:37:49 PM »
The tank tracks were stronger than the armor.


You know this how? Tank tracks were more resistant to penetration than rolled, face hardened, homogenous armor plate?
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Butcher

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Re: 50 cal....
« Reply #57 on: August 29, 2011, 12:08:54 AM »
An example of not penetrating armor, yet disabling a target can be found in the naval battle off of Samar in the P.I., October 1944. The USS Johnston scored between sixty and eighty 5"/38 hits on a Japanese Heavy Cruiser. Not a single round penetrated the Cruiser's armor. Yet, her superstructure was wrecked, the bridge demolished, central fire control knocked out and fires raged in several locations. She was effectively out of the battle, yet her vital engineering spaces, magazines and main guns were undamaged. Indeed, in the same fight, the Jeep carrier White Plains disabled another Cruiser with a single 5" hit. That round magically found the torpedo tubes amidships and caused two of them to detonate.

I suppose that my point is that one can never rule out anything....

Here's a few prime examples of this for example - given the Japanese lack of ingenuity (on a reasonable level), its not surprisingly to see a single 5 inch shell take out a Cruiser - given the fact they had a tendency to store long lance torpedoes on the deck of destroyers (let along CL's) to slow down reload time.

Another fine example of this would be on Lae, where a Japanese maintenance crew had to wait for spare parts rather then gut a few planes rather then fix one plane, 4 planes were damaged but had enough spare parts to fully fix one aircraft at the time, however they were forbidden to touch the damage planes. On the other hand, Torpedo 8 was on Guadalcanal had lost all aircraft in bombardments not 1 was flyable. However someone decided it was a great idea to hack up a bunch of destroyed aircraft to piece one together - a TBM to bomb artillery positions. Some how they managed to do it and the bird actually flew. I don't remember what happen to the TBM, I do know it was destroyed upon landing after a few sorties (where as replacements showed up).


JG 52

Offline bj229r

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Re: 50 cal....
« Reply #58 on: August 29, 2011, 11:31:15 AM »
Confirmation bias?  Shooting platform?

Every air mounted Browning .50 in AH refers to the same exact piece of code as I understand it.  I seem to recall HiTech stating that.
merely observation on my part......dunno. Never happens at that range (06:00 view) from any other plane
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Offline icepac

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Re: 50 cal....
« Reply #59 on: August 29, 2011, 03:17:52 PM »
You know this how? Tank tracks were more resistant to penetration than rolled, face hardened, homogenous armor plate?

The same way that drop forged parts are stronger than rolled parts.