Stuka Pilot. excellent book. link included.

[Guppy35]

The guy...party line or not was a shat hot pilot. The guy had stones the size of grapefruit. his affiliation was bogus but his ability wasnt. Cant we just say the guy was a SH pilot and leave it at that??

Nope.  Cause there was more to the man then just being a pilot.  In the end his piloting skills were secondary to who he was as a man and what he stood for.  And what he stood for was one of the greatest evils if not the most evil the planet has ever seen.

[Ack-Ack]

Hence my secondary clause of that same sentence, "for all intents and purposes"....

Nope.  Hitler was the 55th member of the NSDAP, which was created in 1919, two years before Hitler was invited to join.  Hitler was invited to join after he was sent to investigate the party while still in the army.

ack-ack

[Krusty]

If Charles Manson could fold origami better and sweeter than the most zen of monks, would people be able to say "Man, he was a sh hot origami folder!"

What of the skin-head with a swastika tatooed on his forhead? If he helps a little old lady across the street, does that make him better?


No... Some things define you more than others. Rudel's fanaticism over-rides almost anything else you can call him.

[Krusty]

Nope.  Hitler was the 55th member of the NSDAP, which was created in 1919, two years before Hitler was invited to join.  Hitler was invited to join after he was sent to investigate the party while still in the army.

ack-ack

I didn't want to spark a history lesson. I know it was inaccurate, but let's just say the party back then and the party Hitler changed it into were 2 very different things. "for all intents and purposes" was intended to stave off nitpicking comments like that, but it failed.

[Ack-Ack]

"for all intents and purposes" was intended to stave off nitpicking comments like that, but it failed.

Next time be a little more accurate in your comments and you won't get nitpicked so much.  YMMV.

ack-ack

[JUGgler]

If Charles Manson could fold origami better and sweeter than the most zen of monks, would people be able to say "Man, he was a sh hot origami folder!"

What of the skin-head with a swastika tatooed on his forhead? If he helps a little old lady across the street, does that make him better?

No... Some things define you more than others. Rudel's fanaticism over-rides almost anything else you can call him.

If Hitler had not started genocide upon peoples the swastika would have very little meaning today and the skinhead would probably not exist. Also Hitler would be associated in history books with the likes of Alexander, Napoleon, Caesar etc. etc.Rudel was a follower, as most men are including almost all folks in here. Rudels life as a stuka pilot is remarkable to say the least. His life as a Nazi was just average for "HIS" TIME AND PLACE IN HISTORY.

I rather think Rudel is defined by his time and circumstance. A time none of us can comprehend and hope we never will. Without the stuggle of humanity during WW2 and the attrocities of the Nazis, Great men such as Churchill, Patton, Hartmann, Rudel, Guderian, Montgomery, Rommel, Bradly, Nimitz, Zukov, Bong, etc. etc. etc. and yes even Hitler would be unknown to us and they would have no place in human history. As it is History required "ALL" the "GREAT" people at this time, for if ANY of them were absent to fulfill their GREATNESS, none of them would be remembered, cherrished, loved , hated or admired.

Was Rudel a great man in human history? maybe not, but he was a great man for his time in history as are all the humans spurred to they're greatness when time calls upon them!!


Please note when I say great it does not mean good or evil, as greatness IMHO can be either or both! 



JUGgler

[Guppy35]

There is nothing great within evil JUG.  So we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[JUGgler]

There is nothing great within evil JUG.  So we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I don't think we disagree, we just look at it differently. I'll give you an example: It is a GREAT thing that Hitler came along when he did and not 30 years later! Yes we could argue "why did he have to come along at all" but that is a M00T point. I think Hitler was the perfect man for his time and place to force HUMANITY to learn valuable lessons about itself and its past as well as its future. You could say Hitler was a pawn in the age old struggle of human refinement.



JUGgler

[Oldman731]

I'll give you an example: It is a GREAT thing that Hitler came along when he did and not 30 years later! Yes we could argue "why did he have to come along at all" but that is a M00T point. I think Hitler was the perfect man for his time and place to force HUMANITY to learn valuable lessons about itself and its past as well as its future. You could say Hitler was a pawn in the age old struggle of human refinement.

Well, Jugler, you certainly stopped me there.  Here's an idea:  Why don't we do it all again?  I'll bet that this time we can kill even more people and cause even more suffering for everyone else, and think how much more we'll learn about humanity's self, past and future!  Why, with modern weapons we could probably knock off half of humanity itself, solve overpopulation, get some nuclear winter going to counteract global warming, the possibilities are almost endless.  Think how refined we'll be at the end of it all!

- oldman

[Masherbrum]

If Hitler had not started genocide upon peoples the swastika would have very little meaning today and the skinhead would probably not exist. Also Hitler would be associated in history books with the likes of Alexander, Napoleon, Caesar etc. etc.   Rudel was a follower, as most men are including almost all folks in here. Rudels life as a stuka pilot is remarkable to say the least. His life as a Nazi was just average for "HIS" TIME AND PLACE IN HISTORY.   

I rather think Rudel is defined by his time and circumstance. A time none of us can comprehend and hope we never will. Without the stuggle of humanity during WW2 and the attrocities of the Nazis, Great men such as Churchill, Patton, Hartmann, Rudel, Guderian, Montgomery, Rommel, Bradly, Nimitz, Zukov, Bong, etc. etc. etc. and yes even Hitler would be unknown to us and they would have no place in human history. As it is History required "ALL" the "GREAT" people at this time, for if ANY of them were absent to fulfill their GREATNESS, none of them would be remembered, cherrished, loved , hated or admired.

Was Rudel a great man in human history? maybe not, but he was a great man for his time in history as are all the humans spurred to they're greatness when time calls upon them!!


Please note when I say great it does not mean good or evil, as greatness IMHO can be either or both! 



JUGgler

You are so far off of the mark, it is beyond belief.   

[JUGgler]

Well, Jugler, you certainly stopped me there.  Here's an idea:  Why don't we do it all again?  I'll bet that this time we can kill even more people and cause even more suffering for everyone else, and think how much more we'll learn about humanity's self, past and future!  Why, with modern weapons we could probably knock off half of humanity itself, solve overpopulation, get some nuclear winter going to counteract global warming, the possibilities are almost endless.  Think how refined we'll be at the end of it all!

- oldman

My very obvious point shows this need not happen! Humans have treated each other poorly since the beginning of time.

To look at these issues with less emotion would help!  



JUGgler

[JUGgler]

You are so far off of the mark, it is beyond belief.   

Please elaborate! I believe my opinion is "on the mark" for it being MY opinion!



JUGgler

[Ardy123]

Hitlers existence didn't do $h1t for ending genocide, sadly...

1)1950s: China - Attempted to destroy Buddhism in Tibet and killed thousands.
2)1965: Indonesia -  600,000 people killed - accused of being "communist."
3)1960s: Burundi - Tutsi killed up to 300,000 Hutus in African
4)1965: Guatemala - Over 100,000 Indians killed by military
5)1960s: Nigeria - Thousands of Ibos massacred or starved to death by the
government.
6)1971: Pakistan - Up to three million Bengalis killed by the Pakistan government.
7)1972-1973: Paraguay - Thousands of Ache Indians were tortured, enslaved,
or killed by the Paraguayan government.
8)1970s: Cambodia - Up to three million Kampucheans killed by the Khmer Rouge.
9)1975 to now: Indonesia - Up to 100,000 out of a total population of 600,000 East
Timorans killed by Indonesian troops.
10)1992-1995: Bosnia -  200,000 deaths
11)1994: Rwanda - Hutus kill 800,000 Tutsis
12)2004 to Now: Sudan - Government sponsored Janjaweed has killed off over 400,000 innocent
civilians and displaced 2.5 million people from their homes.

[JUGgler]

Hitlers existence didn't do $h1t for ending genocide, sadly...

1)1950s: China - Attempted to destroy Buddhism in Tibet and killed thousands.
2)1965: Indonesia -  600,000 people killed - accused of being "communist."
3)1960s: Burundi - Tutsi killed up to 300,000 Hutus in African
4)1965: Guatemala - Over 100,000 Indians killed by military
5)1960s: Nigeria - Thousands of Ibos massacred or starved to death by the
government.
6)1971: Pakistan - Up to three million Bengalis killed by the Pakistan government.
7)1972-1973: Paraguay - Thousands of Ache Indians were tortured, enslaved,
or killed by the Paraguayan government.
8)1970s: Cambodia - Up to three million Kampucheans killed by the Khmer Rouge.
9)1975 to now: Indonesia - Up to 100,000 out of a total population of 600,000 East
Timorans killed by Indonesian troops.
10)1992-1995: Bosnia -  200,000 deaths
11)1994: Rwanda - Hutus kill 800,000 Tutsis
12)2004 to Now: Sudan - Government sponsored Janjaweed has killed off over 400,000 innocent
civilians and displaced 2.5 million people from their homes.

All this is very true Ardy, but I also think noone can deny that the human race turned a corner after Ww2 well maybe the human race in the west anyway  

Also none of these involved the world as a whole. All the examples you give here show that these areas have much to learn about humanity!

JUGgler

[Guppy35]

I'm not big on 'lessons' that involved people dying.  There is NOTHING gained from that.  We tend to try and make it noble as there is nothing else to do.

One of my favorite movie lines if from "Love and Death"   The line of troops walks on to a battlefield covered with bodies and wreckage.  The one guy looks at the Woody Allen character and says "God is testing us!"   The Woody Allen character looks back and says "Could we have just taken the written?"

JUG, get a copy of "Defying Hitler" by Sebastian Haffner.  As mentioned earlier it was written just prior to WW2 and not edited in hindsight.  He comments on exactly what you are talking about.  Let's just say he didn't agree A powerful memoir