Skydive aircraft stall spin...aaagh

[MachFly]

Really?  Because the "jumpers requested it"?  I've had jumpers request that I climb through an overcast, drop them through an overcast, fly when winds were outside limits, put an "extra" jumper onboard, etc.  As PIC you make ALL decisions regarding safety of flight regardless who might "request" something.

Sure the odds of that are low, but I don't know if we can blame the pilot for accidently spinning it. Maybe it was a problem with his decision making.

If you watch the vid all the way through the "credits" at the end say the pilot was given additional training in spin recognition/recovery.  Sounds like it was not intentional.

Did not get to that part. Perhaps your right.

[colmbo]

I don't know if we can blame the pilot for accidently spinning it.

Who could you blame other than the pilot?  If not a problem with his decision making it was certainly a problem with his inability to maintain control of the aircraft.  There simply is no excuse for stalling/spinning an airplane.

[MachFly]

Who could you blame other than the pilot?  If not a problem with his decision making it was certainly a problem with his inability to maintain control of the aircraft.  There simply is no excuse for stalling/spinning an airplane.

I'm not blaming anyone, I'm saying that we only saw it from the jumper's point of view. Perhaps there was a structural damage. My point it we can't just be saying "the pilot is an idiot and that's it". I'm 99% sure that it was the pilot's fault (especially looking at the picture bellow), but we just don't know enough to blame him.


One is looking back & the other one is holding the glare-shield, great!

[Stalwart]

Is it at all possible that the spin was completely unintentional, but the slow recovery was entirely intentional?

If you're spinning, and divers are flying off your ship in every direction, and free falling near you, what do you do?

I'm not a pilot, and I'm not even a good PC pilot, but it occurs to me that in that situation, you might not want to recover until your SA is perfect and you've picked your spot to extend.

Any thoughts?

[MachFly]

Is it at all possible that the spin was completely unintentional, but the slow recovery was entirely intentional?

If you're spinning, and divers are flying off your ship in every direction, and free falling near you, what do you do?

I'm not a pilot, and I'm not even a good PC pilot, but it occurs to me that in that situation, you might not want to recover until your SA is perfect and you've picked your spot to extend.

Any thoughts?

It's possible.
If that would happen to me I'd recover from the spin but still keep it pointing down, and pull up as soon as I'm clear. A human falls at 120kts (I think) and a lot slower when they pull the chute, so either way it would not take long to clear. Just got to make sure not to overspeed and rip the wings off.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

That spin was intentional. Everyone it's relaxed, red shirt is looking back to check whose's left onboard, uniform guy is sipping his moccachiano, ju its looking at the alti waiting. Judging by the nose low attitude, surely is no CG induced flat spin, and even dorkface 101 would have ben out of that spin right away if he wanted to.

They are trying to cover their butt saying it was unintentional incase someone decides to go on a crusade an report them. (if there's a rule against spining and droping skydivers? Except the reckless operation one)

BTW, I personaly witnessed a skydive operation where the pilot spins his way down with the divers, and thats in    a C402 ... And off course the 7000fpm dive in a Pilatus.

[cpxxx]

I don't know if you've flown skydivers Frenchy but I do and in my opinion in no way was it intentional, you can clearly see the aircraft began to spin literally as the tandem was sitting in the door. They were lucky to get away without hitting part of the aircraft. That was really dangerous. If I did that I would be ex skydive pilot immediately after landing. If it was intentional then he went too early.  One of the issues with skydive flying is that you have to keep it slow but not so slow that the CG changes as everyone heads for the door or he airflow changes that happens when some hang on the outside can stall you. If you don't get it right there is often a lot of forward pressure to keep the nose from pitching up even then your airspeed can bleed away so you need to add power. That looks like what happened there. He was too slow to start with and as the airspeed went away he tried to keep the nose level.  But with a bunch of guys messing with his airflow and CG, a wing dropped and he departed. Also even if the continued spin was intentional maintaining it with skydivers on board is really irresponsible. The risk of one hitting the tail on departure is very high.

I would think the delay in recovery was caused by a combination of the aircraft characteristics and possibly the pilot's inexperience with spins. Many modern pilots have done very few spins and many are scared of them.

The other skydivers were calm but that's often because they're not sure what's going on. Having a parachute or two does allow to take measured view of what's happening to the aircraft you're on. I had a similar issue lately when I had an engine problem and I ordered the solos out. One went but the other two closed the door after him. I had to get quite excited with them to get the message across, finally and reluctantly they got out. Also notice that the the third jumper in the door had a flapping reserve handle. That was pointed out to him, fixing that delayed the others.  I would say that it was only later that the jumpers realised how big the problem was.

No I do think it was accidental.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

I hear you, and respect your experience, but the pilot with the bar codes is not even remotely trying to recover. Doesn't look agitated at all, doesn't start barking at the PF. Makes me really believe it was planed.

I have a couple of 1000 hours as flight instructor/training cpt and crew operation, and I never witnessed someone NOT getting excited when something starts to get wrong. At the very least someones points at something/talks. But I could be wrong.

[Lepape2]

Yup, it seriously looks like it was a planned spin to follow the divers through their fall after they jumped and have more jumpers jump off the airplane to join them. The pilot didn't look exited at all and seemed like this was definitely not his first time doing this. The most dangerous part is not the spin itself if the plane can recover easily, its the overspeed danger while leveling out after the recover.

But I have to agree its dangerous jumping off a spinning airplane but if the pilot was okay with filming everything, its might be because he knows he is allowed to do it legally and thus, marginally safe I suppose.

Heck, I wouldn't mind to be either the pilot or the jumpers. But please don't tell my mom...  

[cpxxx]

No seriously I think he lost it. As a skydive pilot you keep in mind you don't want to harm or even scare skydivers. They are quick to hang you. You are there to facilitate them.  If you do something stupid, they will know. A lot of them know exactly what's what.

He lost it. I speak as a current skydive pilot. Really I don't want to criticise other pilots but he lost it.

[The Jekyll]

One thing for sure, if it is a jump I Jumpmaster and a spin occurs, intentional or not, there is going to be some serious post-jump investigations and FAA interactions. There is absolutely no excuse for having a jumper exit without a stable platform and without the aircraft continuing on a good glide-path away from the jumpers. I have seen too often mishaps at the door on stable runs let alone unstable ones. If this was intentional then there is absolutely no way that pilot gets a free ride to ever do that again. That being said, I hope that the spin was a mistake and the pilot gets all the extra training necessary before ever carrying jumpers again. It is fortunate that no one was injured, the sky, even more so than the water, is unforgiving of even the smallest mistakes.

[Lepape2]

Seems we might have to find that sub-sub-chapter in the FAA regulations precisely talking about wreckless flying in skydive planes. I don't have time now but I'm willing to take a look at it.

[MachFly]

Seems we might have to find that sub-sub-chapter in the FAA regulations precisely talking about wreckless flying in skydive planes. I don't have time now but I'm willing to take a look at it.

It happened in Africa, FAA's rules do not apply.

[Lepape2]

It happened in Africa, FAA's rules do not apply.

Well I'm going to Africa right away then! 

[MachFly]

Well I'm going to Africa right away then! 

That's not exactly what I meant.