When Is It Alright to HO?

[SEraider]

ho's are good for people that dont have enough skill or acm, to fight their opponent in a decent fight. they would much rather end it there and get a new plane, rather then learn something.  i like to duck under the HO, come back and waste them from a 6 position and show them how a HO is not acm. sometimes i just stay on their 6 long enough to watch them auger because they are running from me and not paying attention as opposed to shooting them down. its much more entertaining! 

I can't tell you how many times holier-than-thou, "non-hoers," ho-whine on 200 sticks ho'd me when they realizing they are losing the 1 v 1 fights against me.  They start clean, and end like a dweeb, consequently staying silent on 200. 

Incidently, they may happen to be higher rank sticks so clean fights don't mean @!#@$%.  A) it's hypocracy B) these are relativly good sticks that throw their ethics down the toilet to get the kill. 
Clean fights mean a faster death most times and still counts as one.   

[Dead Man Flying]

B) these are relativly good sticks that throw their ethics down the toilet to get the kill.  

"Good" sticks often do whatever it takes to get a kill.  Reupping from a base after you've been shot down isn't terribly fun, and it can take a long time to get back into the action again.  Dying has tangible costs in time and may even sway the balance of power in a massive furball.  In that context, is it very surprising that "good" sticks don't want to die and will throw out "ethics" to obtain a kill?  It might be disappointing to you, but it's hardly surprising and not terribly unethical.  It is entirely rational.

Keep in mind that these are fights where, by your own admission, you would have won except for the HO.  In that case, your opponent had every reason to use it - and it worked.  It wound up becoming an effective tactic to counter your superior skill.

Edit:  And yes, they're hypocrites if they denounce HOs while employing them as the tactic of last resort.

[SEraider]

"Good" sticks often do whatever it takes to get a kill.  Reupping from a base after you've been shot down isn't terribly fun, and it can take a long time to get back into the action again.  Dying has tangible costs in time and may even sway the balance of power in a massive furball.  In that context, is it very surprising that "good" sticks don't want to die and will throw out "ethics" to obtain a kill?  It might be disappointing to you, but it's hardly surprising and not terribly unethical.  It is entirely rational.

Keep in mind that these are fights where, by your own admission, you would have won except for the HO.  In that case, your opponent had every reason to use it - and it worked.  It wound up becoming an effective tactic to counter your superior skill.

Let me clarify as I agree 100% with what you said.  Mainly "ethics" in MA is a oximoron.  And a "good" stick is defined differenly by any and every player.  Perhaps I was not "good" for allowing the ho to happen?  Perfectly reasonable argument. 

But in the end either i'll say "gf" on 200 or say nothing.  I won't start with HO-tard, at least not anymore.

[mtnman]

I really do fail to see where "ethics" and HO's have even the slightest correlation???

If they do, then the other "tactics" in the game must correlate ethically as well???  Is turn-fighting "ethical"?  How about rolling?  Immelmann's?  What if I fire while rolling and performing an immelmann at the same time, while dropping a notch of flaps and adjusting my heading by SEVERAL degrees?

I don't EVER "go for" the HO.  I ALWAYS avoid it.  But I don't do it because I think its unfair, ungentlemanly, unethical, unskillful, or any other bogus reason I've ever seen used to belittle those who use it...  And, I've taken shots that the other guy may not have liked...

I certainly don't avoid it in order to artificially make the fight last longer.

In reality, I avoid the HO for selfish reasons, which is really what Levi alluded to.  I find it too dangerous, and too time consuming if I fail.  Realistically, I'm going to kill my opponent as quickly (and safely) as possible, every single chance I get.  Yes, that means I avoid the Ho.  It doesn't mean I'm more "classy" as a result.

[ink]

I really do fail to see where "ethics" and HO's have even the slightest correlation???

If they do, then the other "tactics" in the game must correlate ethically as well???  Is turn-fighting "ethical"?  How about rolling?  Immelmann's?  What if I fire while rolling and performing an immelmann at the same time, while dropping a notch of flaps and adjusting my heading by SEVERAL degrees?

I don't EVER "go for" the HO.  I ALWAYS avoid it.  But I don't do it because I think its unfair, ungentlemanly, unethical, unskillful, or any other bogus reason I've ever seen used to belittle those who use it...  And, I've taken shots that the other guy may not have liked...

I certainly don't avoid it in order to artificially make the fight last longer.

In reality, I avoid the HO for selfish reasons, which is really what Levi alluded to.  I find it too dangerous, and too time consuming if I fail.  Realistically, I'm going to kill my opponent as quickly (and safely) as possible, every single chance I get.  Yes, that means I avoid the Ho.  It doesn't mean I'm more "classy" as a result.

awesome

[Stellaris]

Ethics?  Ethics are about moral dilemmas.  There's no moral question here.  It's not even a question of sportsmanship, since that would require a general agreement on the expected rules and behaviour, and this does not exist.  It's a question of preference.  If you don't like it, don't do it.  If you don't like it done to you, don't accept the HO.

[mtnman]

OK, if I take the all times out will you answer that question then?  Long post but I did not see an answer to the question does cause the fights and the complaining.  We agree on the rest.  If you have a chance to HO me in anything less than 3 vs 1, I made a mistake but that is not the scenario I described.

I'm not avoiding your question, I just don't really understand it the way you have it worded.  

Are you upset about the HO?  Yes, I think it's acceptable, anytime someone wants to try it on me.  I always expect it, and always do my best to not get hit with it.  Give it your best shot, and shoot me if you can.  It's what we're here for.  Actually, I intend to make that poor opportunity for you to HO me your absolute best chance of beating me.  Better take advantage of it while you can  

Are you upset about ganging?  Yes, I think it's acceptable, and if someone wants to do that, go for it.  Again, I always expect it when multiple cons are around, so do my best to avoid it and even to control the situation, if I can.  Some of my absolute favorite, most-memorable fights have come as a result of being outnumbered, out-E'ed, out-turned, or whatever.  "I" won't gang, because I see no "sport" in it.  I win almost all of the 1 vs. 1 fights I'm in, and see zero thrill in having "help".  So, again, I'm avoiding ganging someone for selfish reasons...  The thrill of ganging someone isn't worth my time.  I'm not really being "classy" by avoiding the gang.  Heck, I'm often hoping my countryman will die so I can jump in, lol.

Are you upset about the combination of ganging and HOing?  Yes, I think it's acceptable.  

I dislike being ganged, much more than I dislike being HO'ed.  I dislike someone avoiding the HO for "ethical" reasons much more than I dislike being HO'ed.

[waystin2]

I really do fail to see where "ethics" and HO's have even the slightest correlation???

If they do, then the other "tactics" in the game must correlate ethically as well???  Is turn-fighting "ethical"?  How about rolling?  Immelmann's?  What if I fire while rolling and performing an immelmann at the same time, while dropping a notch of flaps and adjusting my heading by SEVERAL degrees?

I don't EVER "go for" the HO.  I ALWAYS avoid it.  But I don't do it because I think its unfair, ungentlemanly, unethical, unskillful, or any other bogus reason I've ever seen used to belittle those who use it...  And, I've taken shots that the other guy may not have liked...

I certainly don't avoid it in order to artificially make the fight last longer.

In reality, I avoid the HO for selfish reasons, which is really what Levi alluded to.  I find it too dangerous, and too time consuming if I fail.  Realistically, I'm going to kill my opponent as quickly (and safely) as possible, every single chance I get.  Yes, that means I avoid the Ho.  It doesn't mean I'm more "classy" as a result.

We have a winner.  Always respected the Mountain Man!

 

Way

[SEraider]

I really do fail to see where "ethics" and HO's have even the slightest correlation???

They don't.  That was the point I was hoping to get across.  See my reply to "Dead Man Flying" above.  I was originally pointing out that some people whine about the ho and complain about it on 200; they act as if some unwritten rule was broken in the MA of all places, they often HO when they cant establish angles.  I am just saying that they can be hypocrites when they whine and bully, then they do it themselves.   

So no, hoing is part of the game and is fair game, as much as I dislike it. 

[HL117]

I have a shade account, using them simultanously while flying EZ mode planes, Spit-16 and 190D therefore allowing the HO'ing of myself.

Someday I hope to come to the relization I am a dweeb and have No Skillz''s and throw off the error of my ways.

This will be my path to AH fullfillment once I start down it.

 



HL

[Lab Rat 3947]

   

[Lab Rat 3947]

last post in response to SEraider.   

[mtnman]

They don't.  That was the point I was hoping to get across.  See my reply to "Dead Man Flying" above.  I was originally pointing out that some people whine about the ho and complain about it on 200; they act as if some unwritten rule was broken in the MA of all places, they often HO when they cant establish angles.  I am just saying that they can be hypocrites when they whine and bully, then they do it themselves.   

So no, hoing is part of the game and is fair game, as much as I dislike it. 

I know Raider, I wasn't really aiming that at you.

Rather (as you bring up) the "unwritten rule" idea is where the "ethics" of the game would seem to come into play?

I really like your last line above, lol!  Wasn't it Plato who took the question of ethics and measured it basically by the happiness/unhappiness an action caused?

I really don't like being shot from any angle, by any opponent    I do my best to avoid it...  Whether I'm shot in the face, or in the back, I'm down, and have to suffer through lifting and flying out again...  When I've played football, I disliked being scored upon.

[Oldman731]

Are you upset about the combination of ganging and HOing?  Yes, I think it's acceptable.  

I suppose you have just proven Stellaris' contention that sportsmanship requires a consensus on what constitute acceptable standards of behavior.  As I read your post, you believe there aren't any.  That's fine, even though I think it's a little bid sad, but the fact that the HO and ganging discussions arise every few months - and have done so since way back in the AW days - suggests that there is a very large group of people in this game who have a sense of minimum sportsmanship standards.

- oldman

[Masherbrum]

there is a very large group of people in this game who have a sense of minimum sportsmanship standards.

- oldman

Without question.