Author Topic: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now  (Read 7459 times)

Offline crockett

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Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #90 on: September 19, 2011, 09:09:50 PM »
In 1949 Bill Odom wrecked his P-51 into a house in Cleveland and he died as well as two people who were in the house. The wings were not trimmed on that plane to my knowledge. This was an accident plane and simple. A very tragic accident.

Big shout out to the Huey, Viet-Nam vets keeping it real.

An apple is not an orange, regardless of how hard you might try to make it one.
"strafing"

Offline Yeager

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Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #91 on: September 19, 2011, 09:52:09 PM »
just like a regular airshow you don't carry momentum toward the crowd. This accident could NOT be planned for.
It would be very interesting to see a diagram of the race course and its relationship to the populated viewing areas on and near the tarmac.

The tragic reality is an highly modified airplane departed controlled flight and impacted a densely populated viewing area. Will also be interesting to hear from the people that set up the air races and determine spectator viewing areas.  No doubt affected persons will be seeking lawful recourse in the tragedy and we will be privy to some of the details as time goes on...
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline cattb

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Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #92 on: September 19, 2011, 09:58:50 PM »
According to the news which I have seen. Some official news on the cause of the accident is suppose to come Friday.
How much can they determine by then?
Is the news I saw even correct?

Guess wait and see.
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Offline Yeager

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Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #93 on: September 19, 2011, 10:02:59 PM »
Godspeed Jimmy.
Also,

Greg Morcum, 47, Marysville, Wash.

Michael Wogan, 22, Phoenix, Ariz.

George Hewitt, 60, Fort Mohave, Ariz.

John Craik, 47, Gardnerville, Nev.

Regina Bynum, 53, San Angelo, Texas.

Sharon Stewart, 47, Reno, Nev.


Confirmed Missing

Wendy Hewitt, Fort Mohave, Ariz.

Cherie Elvin, Lenexa, Kan.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Bodhi

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Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #94 on: September 19, 2011, 10:10:44 PM »
I believe that the NTSB will rule this accident a result of a catastrophic mechanical failure, probably resulting from undetected fatigue of the trim tab hardware and/or mounting structure.

The horizontal is a new build structure to the best of my knowledge.

Jimmy's name was Leeward, not Leeland.
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline Widewing

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Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #95 on: September 19, 2011, 10:12:35 PM »
I think the trim tab played only a peripheral role in this accident. Despite what Widewings friend said the nose isnt trimmed down that much and the pilot in this case was certainly trained to handle events like that. However...


Chalenge, you don't think so? How about asking a guy with over 2,000 hours in P-51s, racing and airshows? I did... At speeds above 400 mph, a P-51's stick forces often require in excess of 100 lbs just to keep the nose level. A pilot cannot sustain that. Thus, he trims the elevators down to eliminate much of the force. However, trim changes with airspeed, and racing pilot will adjust trim as required. At very high speeds, should a trim tab fail, the surface holding trim is at least halved. Thus, the aircraft will immediately pitch up. A member of Leeward's ground crew reportedly stated that real-time telemetry indicated 10.4g peak loading. Not only is that more than enough to GLOC any pilot, but the extremely rapid onset of G virtually guarantees that Leeward was out within a second or two.

Bob Hannah could tell you how violent the pitch up is....  

"About 5 seconds after Voodoo pitched up suddenly, Steve Hinton radioed Hannah, "You OK Bob?" "Yeah, this thing just popped big time", replied Hannah. What Hannah didn't mention is that the g-load from the quick pull-up had caused him to black out. He finally managed to reach the throttle and reduced Voodoo's power. At that point Hannah radioed that he "wasn't out of it yet," and that he wasn't thinking clearly. Later, he declared a mayday and made a perfect landing. . . . On the ground one could see what cause Voodoo's problems during the race. The left elevator torque tube failed when the elevator trim fluttered and departed the plane."

Bob Hannah was 41 years old and in excellent physical shape. Still, it took him a while to recover from the rapid onset of high g. Now, Leeward was 74 years old, with the reduced blood flow that follows all aging. He didn't have enough time to recover from the GLOC.

Pretty open and shut..... I'm very confident that this will be the finding of the NTSB investigation, especially since they now have the onboard data logger card, and that of the crew.

Has anyone seen the most recent video released? Jesus, Mary and Joseph... The guy who shot the video was barely 75 yards from the impact.

Here's a link to an NBC report with the video...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/44586193#44586193
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 10:42:12 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Megalodon

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Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #96 on: September 19, 2011, 10:28:15 PM »
In 1949 Bill Odom wrecked his P-51 into a house in Cleveland and he died as well as two people who were in the house. The wings were not trimmed on that plane to my knowledge. This was an accident plane and simple. A very tragic accident.

Big shout out to the Huey, Viet-Nam vets keeping it real.

Bill Odem's P51C "Beguine" nope not trimmed  :rolleyes:



Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520

Offline 1sum41

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Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #97 on: September 19, 2011, 10:32:03 PM »
Widewing is correct. In my friends mustang ( buzzin cuzzin) we always have to add nose down trim.

Offline Widewing

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Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #98 on: September 19, 2011, 10:34:33 PM »
The horizontal is a new build structure to the best of my knowledge.

Jimmy's name was Leeward, not Leeland.

Thanks for correcting the name misspelling...  :aok
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline morfiend

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Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #99 on: September 19, 2011, 10:46:16 PM »
 Yes sorry Bodhi I followed Wides lead and carried it on,my mistake!





   :salute

Offline Megalodon

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Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #100 on: September 19, 2011, 10:47:59 PM »
One vid of him talking about his plane was removed from another site. Probably because of traffic.

June
Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im-m1yllfSE
Part2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fent9Qa0clk

Thursday's interview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGkQY9v18RA


This plane was not even a test plane, more the experimental category.


« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 10:56:18 PM by Megalodon »
Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520

Offline Yeager

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Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #101 on: September 19, 2011, 10:54:07 PM »
At speeds above 400 mph, a P-51's stick forces often require in excess of 100 lbs just to keep the nose level. A pilot cannot sustain that. Thus, he trims the elevators down to eliminate much of the force. However, trim changes with airspeed, and racing pilot will adjust trim as required. At very high speeds, should a trim tab fail, the surface holding trim is at least halved. Thus, the aircraft will immediately pitch up. A member of Leeward's ground crew reportedly stated that real-time telemetry indicated 10.4g peak loading. Not only is that more than enough to GLOC any pilot, but the extremely rapid onset of G virtually guarantees that Leeward was out within a second or two.
That sounds very believable to me.  What is disconcerting is that such forces are dealt on racing planes going hell fast - hell close to the ground  in such close proximity to dense populations.  If what you describe is true, as it very much seems to be, then this tragedy was just waiting to happen.

To have so much riding on a trim tab is almost approaching the breaking point of calculated risk with regards to pilots, spectators and machines.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 10:57:28 PM by Yeager »
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Offline Golfer

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Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #102 on: September 20, 2011, 07:06:02 AM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 10:23:04 AM by Skuzzy »

Offline Shuffler

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Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #103 on: September 20, 2011, 08:53:14 AM »
It would be very interesting to see a diagram of the race course and its relationship to the populated viewing areas on and near the tarmac.

The tragic reality is an highly modified airplane departed controlled flight and impacted a densely populated viewing area. Will also be interesting to hear from the people that set up the air races and determine spectator viewing areas.  No doubt affected persons will be seeking lawful recourse in the tragedy and we will be privy to some of the details as time goes on...

Doubt there will be lawful recourse. All they need to do is read the back of their ticket...........


Watched that newer video..... you'd think that some outfit that called themselves NEWS would know the difference between a RACE and an AIRSHOW.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 09:03:26 AM by Shuffler »
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Offline Yeager

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Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #104 on: September 20, 2011, 10:03:04 AM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 10:23:21 AM by Skuzzy »
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns