On Sleep and its Deprivation

[gyrene81]

Going to bed earlier would help.  However, due to the shift in sleep cycles that's just not possible.  It's like asking a thousand (approximately the number of students in my high school) grown men to fall asleep at 19:00 or 20:00.  Sure, a few might pull it off, but almost everyone else will be lying awake until around 21:00.

Your point about Arizona versus California is interesting, but it's well after nightfall at 22:00-23:00.  The only exception could be the summer, but there isn't any school then.

-Penguin

you underestimate the power of human will and the level of adapability humans have. i'm willing to put money down that any adult with military or civil service (firemen, police, emt) experience can get at least 900 out of 1000 teenagers to change their sleep cycles in 7 days. i've personally witnessed 102 people age 18-23 change their sleep patterns within 7 days and constantly adapt to changing conditions for 13 weeks straight, all at the same time.

what they didn't do is sit in front of a television, computer or video game all day long and reflect on why they couldn't do something.

[gyrene81]

Penguin, I thought it was convincing, but that it was a little far fetched about automobile accidents.  Even if you want to keep those points in if there is data to back it up, fine, but your conclusion

To conclude, Walpole’s students are depressed, numb and tired every morning.  It is not their fault; their melatonin cycles have shifted, leaving them lagging behind everyone else.  Early start times exacerbate this problem, and students must then cope with drowsiness, depression crime, death and maiming by horrific automobile crashes, and worst of all, reduced academic performance.

needs some serious work.  It comes off as very whiney and exaggerated and that a high school student wrote it.  Especially the line "death and maiming by horrific automobile crashes".  I said Give me a freakin' break when I read that.  I don't think you want your target audience to think you are full of **** when they finish your paper.  And reduced academic performance is worse than getting killed in an automobile crash?  

Your best bet would be to stick to believable points, such as statistics showing that later start times are a good thing.  I personally thought the increased accidents was a stretch.  Unless, thirty minutes to an hour longer from start times there is less work traffic or if there is some overnight frost on the ground, it has been given a chance to melt.  Things like that, I don't buy that having a little less sleep is going to cause more accidents.   I also thought it was a great point about later school end times bridges the gap between when most parents get home from work and keep teens out of trouble that way but you didn't expand upon it or even mention it in your conclusion.

I also did not like the line about walking "undead" in a serious toned paper.

if only he heeds your advice grizz, nicely stated sir.   

i prefer the hammer method but, with all the different types of feedback he's getting, maybe by the time he reaches college he will be able to pass something besides english 101.

[grizz441]

you underestimate the power of human will and the level of adapability humans have. i'm willing to put money down that any adult with military or civil service (firemen, police, emt) experience can get at least 900 out of 1000 teenagers to change their sleep cycles in 7 days. i've personally witnessed 102 people age 18-23 change their sleep patterns within 7 days and constantly adapt to changing conditions for 13 weeks straight, all at the same time.

what they didn't do is sit in front of a television, computer or video game all day long and reflect on why they couldn't do something.

If Penguin comes up with data that shows teens in puberty naturally have a later sleep time and can also show data that schools that start school a little later have more positives that outweigh negatives, then he has proven his points.  One big problem with starting school later is that after school activities get started later which he didn't mention.

[Penguin]

 penguin is at it again hey? i can see by your essay that you selected only data that supports your theory and left out other important data that was included in the studies you referenced, as in other physiological issues, socio-economic issues, environmental issues, etc... when you reference a person with a degree such as phd or md, you need to show their title. for instance the quoted studies of dr. mary carskadan or mary carskadan phd.

i'd give you a c for the effort, but that's just me.

oh and what canacka said...change your lifestyle, you're a highly adaptable life form.

1.) Please point out those issues, I don't see them.  In addition, I'd like to know why I should do anything more than acknowledge the opposing point when I'm trying to show my administration the benefits of moving start times later.  Imagine an ad for
2.) I'll reference their title as PhD.  I missed that.
3.) I actually tried that.  In 9th grade I'd be in bed at around 9:45 each night for a month.  I'd hop in, and for around an hour I'd be tossing, turning, wide awake.

It's not just a matter of getting enough sleep.  The whole circadian cycles shifts, which means that teenaged brains are still secreting the mix of hormones that make them sleepy when they need to be wide awake.   The circadian cycle shifts back to 'normal' after puberty.

I was pretty sure that one of the studies I read said that, but I'll rewrite that opening statement. However, I thought that I removed every reference to zombies.  I'll check for it.  I must have missed it when I remade this from the first edition, which was for the school paper.  I also need to acknowledge the opposition, good point.

-Penguin

[Flipperk]

The most important aspect of any proposition paper is to convince the person (Or school district in this case) through COMPARISONS. Would the benefit of moving the start time to 8:20AM really outweigh all negatives that come with moving the start time back an hour? I mean over half the teenagers have a job or after school activities, or both, would cutting an hour out of that really benefit them more then an extra hour of sleep?

Lets' look at that extra hour for a second, when I was in High School I knew I had to be up at 6:20AM to be ready for school at 7:20AM...if all of a sudden I knew school started at 8:20AM all I would see is an extra hour to stay up late and play video games.

So really if you think about it, only a small fraction of teenagers would even benefit from this extra hour...those who do not work, do not have after school activities, do not have friends, and have no lives outside of an academic career...that is your top 1%. (That was a joke, do not get your underwear in a knot)




I would consider it to be a moral hazard, which means it will give someone the incentive to do the opposite of what it was intended to do. By you giving them and extra hour of "sleep," they get an extra hour of "play."

[Penguin]

However, as it stands today, you never get to choose at all.  This gives everyone the opportunity to get the sleep that they need.

-Penguin

[GNucks]

This gives everyone the opportunity to get the sleep that they need.

How do you not have the opportunity to get the sleep you need now?

[Penguin]

Penguin, I thought it was convincing, but that it was a little far fetched about automobile accidents.  Even if you want to keep those points in if there is data to back it up, fine, but your conclusion

To conclude, Walpole’s students are depressed, numb and tired every morning.  It is not their fault; their melatonin cycles have shifted, leaving them lagging behind everyone else.  Early start times exacerbate this problem, and students must then cope with drowsiness, depression crime, death and maiming by horrific automobile crashes, and worst of all, reduced academic performance.

needs some serious work.  It comes off as very whiney and exaggerated and that a high school student wrote it.  Especially the line "death and maiming by horrific automobile crashes".  I said Give me a freakin' break when I read that.  I don't think you want your target audience to think you are full of **** when they finish your paper.  And reduced academic performance is worse than getting killed in an automobile crash?   

Your best bet would be to stick to believable points, such as statistics showing that later start times are a good thing.  I personally thought the increased accidents was a stretch.  Unless, thirty minutes to an hour longer from start times there is less work traffic or if there is some overnight frost on the ground, it has been given a chance to melt.  Things like that, I don't buy that having a little less sleep is going to cause more accidents.   I also thought it was a great point about later school end times bridges the gap between when most parents get home from work and keep teens out of trouble that way but you didn't expand upon it or even mention it in your conclusion.

I also did not like the line about walking "undead" in a serious toned paper.

I think you missed this part here:

Academic and athletic achievements are not all that is at stake.  A study from Kentucky (1, 4) evaluated the effects of delays in high-school start time in terms of hours of sleep and motor vehicle crashes.  A one-hour delay in the school start time resulted in an average one-hour increase in the nightly sleep of the students.  The average rates for car crashes among teen drivers dropped 16.5% over 2 years of the study, compared to two years before the study.  Furthermore, the incidence of car crashes increased by 7.8% in the rest of the state over the same period.

What do you suppose would be a better way to put it?  Should I take the adjectives off?

How do you not have the opportunity to get the sleep you need now?

Teenagers don't get sleepy early enough to get enough sleep.

GRIZZ!  Here's my revised conclusion:

To conclude, Walpole’s students are depressed, numb and tired every morning.  It is not their fault; their melatonin cycles have shifted leaving them lagging behind everyone else.  Early start times exacerbate this problem, and students face drowsiness, depression, crime, car crashes, and reduced academic performance because of it.

-Penguin

[Flipperk]

I think you missed this part here:

What do you suppose would be a better way to put it?  Should I take the adjectives off?

Teenagers don't get sleepy early enough to get enough sleep.

-Penguin

Question Penguin about the motor accidents,

if we were to start an hour later, do you agree that not ALL teenagers will take advantage of this extra hour?

If you do agree, then do you agree that these teenagers are more than likely the teenagers that care more about having fun with parties and what not than school?

If you do agree, then you therefore have to agree that these same teenagers will be out at night an hour later than usual after these parties...

...my question is, would this shift of saving people in the morning outweigh these teenagers being out later at night and causing more accidents?

[Penguin]

A one-hour delay in the school start time resulted in an average one-hour increase in the nightly sleep of the students.

The kids will sleep more if you give them time to.  On the question of them staying out later and causing more accidents, I honestly don't know.  Not all teenagers who stay up late are necessarily outside, Facebook, Twitter, and text-messaging are also major causes.  Also, perhaps you've over-estimated the autonomy of the kids.  I don't think that their parents would let them party out to 23:00 or 0:00 on a school night.

-Penguin

[Flipperk]

The kids will sleep more if you give them time to.  On the question of them staying out later and causing more accidents, I honestly don't know.  Not all teenagers who stay up late are necessarily outside, Facebook, Twitter, and text-messaging are also major causes.  Also, perhaps you've over-estimated the autonomy of the kids.  I don't think that their parents would let them party out to 23:00 or 0:00 on a school night.

-Penguin

Most parents do not allow teens to be out, but I promise it does not stop most teenagers....just ask me 

[GNucks]

Teenagers don't get sleepy early enough to get enough sleep.

That is BS. If you wake up later you'll just get tired later. If you find yourself incapable of going to sleep until 11PM now, all pushing school back an hour or two will just make you want to go to sleep at midnight or 1AM. You don't get tired based on where the sun is in the sky, you get tired based on how long you've been awake and how hard you've worked that day.

The kids will sleep more if you give them time to.

Again, you already have more than enough time to sleep. You're not asking for school to be shorter, you're asking it for it to start later, so you're not asking for more time.

Oh, and kids will not sleep more if they're given more time to anyway. The fact that you believe that is comical.

[Tupac]

I was in a sleep schedule over the sumemr where I would go to sleep at about 7 and wake up at 5AM - and I got in another bad one where I would go to bed at 3 and wake up at 1ish

Sleep schedule has nothing to do with maturity level.

[skorpion]

i go to bed at 11:00 PM, wake up at 6:00 AM and get to school at 7:40 AM. tell me how hard it is to wake up after getting the reccomended 7-8 hours of sleep each night?

during the summer i'd pull all nighters, go to bed at 6 AM, and wake up at 4 PM. if i actually slept my normal summer schedule then it was bed at 2 AM and wake up at 9 PM.

[Penguin]

That is BS. If you wake up later you'll just get tired later. If you find yourself incapable of going to sleep until 11PM now, all pushing school back an hour or two will just make you want to go to sleep at midnight or 1AM. You don't get tired based on where the sun is in the sky, you get tired based on how long you've been awake and how hard you've worked that day.

Again, you already have more than enough time to sleep. You're not asking for school to be shorter, you're asking it for it to start later, so you're not asking for more time.

Oh, and kids will not sleep more if they're given more time to anyway. The fact that you believe that is comical.

What scientific evidence do you have to back yourself up?  You can force yourself to go to bed at an unnatural hour, (e.g., having midnight watch on a schooner), but left to your own devices, you will rise and retire based on ambient light.  If you aren't addicted to electronics, that light should be the sun.

Again, stare the facts in the face.  These are the quoted results of the study by Fred Danner, Ph.D.; Barbra Phillips, M.D., M.S.P.H.

Results: Average hours of nightly sleep increased and catch-up sleep on weekends decreased.  Average crash rates for teen drivers in the county in the 2 years after the change in school start times dropped 16.5%, ompared witht the 2 years prior to the change, whereas teen crash rates for the rest of the state increased 7.8% over the same time period.

My only change is that I bolded what I wanted to emphasize.  You have made a completely unsubstantiated claim, which you have then continued to repeat ad nauseum.  I have refuted every one of your claims, and used hard data to back up my refutations.  Furthermore, every one of my points is well substantiated by respected authorities on the matters thereof.

i go to bed at 11:00 PM, wake up at 6:00 AM and get to school at 7:40 AM. tell me how hard it is to wake up after getting the reccomended 7-8 hours of sleep each night?

during the summer i'd pull all nighters, go to bed at 6 AM, and wake up at 4 PM. if i actually slept my normal summer schedule then it was bed at 2 AM and wake up at 9 PM.

Teenagers need 8 1/2 to 9 hours, on average.  As with any average, there will be outliers.

-Penguin