On Sleep and its Deprivation

[Penguin]

I'll see what I can do about it.  I think my school's library has a scanner.

It's not just me, that's the issue.  If it were just me, I would have noticed.  Hormones most certainly change after puberty.  Growth hormone plummets, and so do the sex hormones (but at a slower pace).  It's true that we all have some, just like all men have some estrogen (ever wonder why a couple of lumps formed under your nipples during puberty?), but not a significant amount.

So what you're saying is:

• The studies are meaningless
• I am completely at fault, much to the disagreement with the aforementioned studies
• I have not acknowledged the opposing points.
• I am alone in this issue, much to the disagreement of the aforementioned studes

The studies being meaningless doesn't really make sense.  They are sound and support my point.  Unless you can come up with more studies that point to the current method being better than mine, then they are also representative of the research done on the subject.

The aforementioned studies clearly show why many other teens and I cannot get enough sleep and wake up early enough.  Unless you're up until 0:00, it's melatonin's doing, not your own.

Perhaps I didn't acknowledge the opposition clearly enough.  I will make that edit, thank-you for pointing it out.

-Penguin

[canacka]

I'll see what I can do about it.  I think my school's library has a scanner.

It's not just me, that's the issue.  If it were just me, I would have noticed.  Hormones most certainly change after puberty.  Growth hormone plummets, and so do the sex hormones (but at a slower pace).  It's true that we all have some, just like all men have some estrogen (ever wonder why a couple of lumps formed under your nipples during puberty?), but not a significant amount.

So what you're saying is:

• The studies are meaningless
• I am completely at fault, much to the disagreement with the aforementioned studies
• I have not acknowledged the opposing points.
• I am alone in this issue, much to the disagreement of the aforementioned studes

The studies being meaningless doesn't really make sense.  They are sound and support my point.  Unless you can come up with more studies that point to the current method being better than mine, then they are also representative of the research done on the subject.

The aforementioned studies clearly show why many other teens and I cannot get enough sleep and wake up early enough.  Unless you're up until 0:00, it's melatonin's doing, not your own.

Perhaps I didn't acknowledge the opposition clearly enough.  I will make that edit, thank-you for pointing it out.

-Penguin

What I mean is why is it that only recently has it been such a problem?  I dealt with it just fine.  I went to bed early, got up in time for school , and still had energy for after school activities.  You talk as if this should be something new but why hasn't it been brought up before?  Ask the smartest kid in your class what they do for their sleep ritual and see what they say.  I'm not saying studies are meaningless, but I say they are meaningless to be brought into a discussion without disclosing them.  I'm not going to take your word for it, I want to see it and then yet, I will make up my own mind if the study was done with bias or if it was done with the facts in mind.  That is the point you are missing.  And yet again, you still don't see what we are saying, you brought up again that it's the study and hormones but let me ask you this, how did I get by?  How did others in history get by?  We were tired because as adolescents, we wanted to do more, yet we still had to figure out how to do what we wanted and get things done.  Get the practice now about being tired because if you think being an adult is better you are mistaken, it gets worse.  If you don't believe me you will.  That's why so many are going against you on this, what you are asking for sounds like a kid asking for a cookie.

[2ADoc]

Ok so let's look at this, I guess that all of us that grew up, in the old days had it to hard and that is why we are productive members of society.  From the time I turned 16, when I soloed, my dad woke me up at 0430.  We would hit the old choke and puke suck down a bacon and egg taco, and get to OUR airport.  I would help pull out the trainers, 4 of them, Piper Tomahawks, PA-38-112.  By 0600 I was in the air taking the backup bird to Harlingen airport, a friend of mine would pick me up there and I would go to class, all day and make good grades, well for the mot part.  After school my buddy would drop me off at the airport, and I would fly either the back up bird or the broke bird to our home field.  When I got there I still had to wash, or clean the inside of the birds, fuel them, and do the windshields, and for all you old school pilots we were still using Mirror Glaze.  Plus put all the other planes that were out in the hangar.  Then after we shut down the airport I got to go home and do my homework, then if I had time watch a bit of TV, and get my qbutt to bed and start over the next day.  In my opinion today's youth are just a bunch of whining crying little brats, that will not be able to handle the world when they get out of school.  Most live with mommy and daddy till they are 30 or 40 and can't get out of the basement, quit whining, suck it up and be flexible.  Step away from the buffet table the XBox and the playstation.  Your argument is as full of dung as a Christmas goose.  All of us old farts have done pretty good at least we can afford to actually pay for AH and not have mommy and daddy do it for us.  You have lost this argument, it is a worthless and irrational idea, and I hope that it never happens, get a job, a life, or into sports, if all else fails start "getting in touch with yourself and free sites" and go to sleep at a decent hour.

I can see me getting scuzzified over this

[canacka]

I can see me getting scuzzified over this

I can't.

[gyrene81]

Doing manual labor for 8-10 hours a day wouldn't help.  Even if I didn't do homework and travelled between places instantaneously, I'd be home at 22:05 at the earliest.  Slap on homework and I'm worse off than I was before- 23:30 or even 0:00.  Furthermore, I did twleve hours of manual labor (4 hours on, eight hours off, plus hikes on shore) daily for two weeks on a ship, and was still sleepy on the midnight watch and in the morning.  My diet is fine, thank-you.  I eat a turkey sandwich with orange juice for breakfast, a turkey sandwich with orange juice and an apple for lunch, and pasta/rice with skinless chicken with the fat trimmed off for dinner.  For dessert, a couple of scoops of ice-cream.  Diet isn't the problem at all.  In fact, I've been underweight for a long time- I just got back to normal.

This isn't an excuse, it's fact.

lol, you don't know manual labor, and probably never will.  unless you get a job on a commercial fishing boat or with a construction company. it's also extremely obvious you haven't done any research on the effects of carbohydrates on the body. you probably didn't know starch or carbohydrates are metabolized as sugar. processed turkey=enhanced with sugar, bread=carbohydrate, orange juice=enhanced sucrose, apple=sucrose, pasta=carbohydrate, rice=carbohydrate, ice cream=sugar.

you get way more sugar in your diet than you think...stop blaming it on hormones, there are more factors involved than your hormones. the data is there, just look for it. it won't be on wikipedia.

[2ADoc]

I see what his problem is, no red meat, he is IRON deficient, Turkey, Turkey, Turkey, and then some chicken.  It is not ok to kill a cow but fragg the turkey and chicken.  Eat more beef and you will feel better, and have more energy.  Now it all rolls into one the whole MEAT thread, this one, it all makes sense now he doesn't eat red meat, because it is cruel to kill a cow.  It is ok to kill turkeys by the thousands, because they have a toejam life anyway, even though they are treated worse than any Heffer, that was bread for her beef, and her calf.  Not to mention the fact he is to young to get all the vitamins and minerals from beer and whiskey, so we have found the problem.  His mommy and daddy wont or cant buy beef, he is iron deficient and is a liberal, mommy and daddy wont pay for his AH and he is but hurt. he has the Gimme Gimme syndrome and a low self esteem problem.  So penguin belly up to the buffet get some crap cooked red meat and you will feel all better, but make sure it is rare, with a little ground pepper.  Then after a good golden coral 9.95 all you can eat beef fest go home watch some good sleep aid videos, on your iPad, iPhone, or Android, only the free ones though, they dont ask for your age, and dont require a credit card, be one with yourself and your hand and get to bed at a descent time. 

[Jayhawk]

I see what his problem is, no red meat, he is IRON deficient, Turkey, Turkey, Turkey, and then some chicken.  It is not ok to kill a cow but fragg the turkey and chicken.  Eat more beef and you will feel better, and have more energy.  Now it all rolls into one the whole MEAT thread, this one, it all makes sense now he doesn't eat red meat, because it is cruel to kill a cow.  It is ok to kill turkeys by the thousands, because they have a toejam life anyway, even though they are treated worse than any Heffer, that was bread for her beef, and her calf.  Not to mention the fact he is to young to get all the vitamins and minerals from beer and whiskey, so we have found the problem.  His mommy and daddy wont or cant buy beef, he is iron deficient and is a liberal, mommy and daddy wont pay for his AH and he is but hurt. he has the Gimme Gimme syndrome and a low self esteem problem.  So penguin belly up to the buffet get some crap cooked red meat and you will feel all better, but make sure it is rare, with a little ground pepper.  Then after a good golden coral 9.95 all you can eat beef fest go home watch some good sleep aid videos, on your iPad, iPhone, or Android, only the free ones though, they dont ask for your age, and dont require a credit card, be one with yourself and your hand and get to bed at a descent time. 

I was about to rail you for making such an assumption, but I didn't realize what Dichotomy's thread had evolved to.   

[cpxxx]

In this country most schools start at 9am and finish at 4pm. 7:20 seems insanely early to start school. My son started primary school recently, he starts at 8:50 and finishes at 1:30 for this year, 2:30 after that. I think it was always that way here. Possibly something to do with farming, it allowed the farm kids to get up and milk the cows or plough the pasture or something. Plus there's the fact that it's dark right up to around 8:30 in the depths of winter.

It all very well us old stagers grumbling that kids today don't know how good they have it. 'In our day we got up early and walked ten miles without shoes in the pouring rain to get to school' blah blah.

Penguin has a point, like it or not teenagers need more sleep and they go to bed late. It's no use telling them to go to bed early and eat properly. There's barely a teenager alive who does that.

A later start makes sense, after all why induce an instant disadvantage to kids ability to study and learn. Ignoring human nature is foolish.

[VonMessa]

For the record, I haven't really taken a stance on this issue, but to say that adolescents and adults have the same bodies is just not true. There are biological differences between the two that can't be "learned."

The human body is an amazing machine, adaptable to almost any conditions.

[gyrene81]

A later start makes sense, after all why induce an instant disadvantage to kids ability to study and learn. Ignoring human nature is foolish.

considering that for hundreds of years children of working age around the world were required to get up at sunrise and do chores, then go to school, then return home to do more chores before homework and the evening meal, i don't see where there is a current disadvantage. in some countries children still have that same routine. saying children need more sleep now than they did in earlier history is human nature could be considered foolish, especially when you look at historical facts. lifestyles within modern society are the problem, not human nature or hormones. would young penguin's hormones be any less active if he was being raised on a farm in iowa or afghanistan or thailand? what he would be doing is getting up before the sunrise to do chores before going to school, only to return home and do more work before he could sit down and eat dinner then do his homework before bed.

[canacka]

The reason we started at 7:20 was mainly due to busing.  High school first, then middle school, then Elementary, and then Kindergarten which was all at one school.  When you live in a place with a lot of kids, it's easier to start earlier then get another 150 buses.  And besides, no one complained.  It really wasn't a big deal.  I just don't know why it is now all of a sudden.

[Penguin]

I see what his problem is, no red meat, he is IRON deficient, Turkey, Turkey, Turkey, and then some chicken.  It is not ok to kill a cow but fragg the turkey and chicken.  Eat more beef and you will feel better, and have more energy.  Now it all rolls into one the whole MEAT thread, this one, it all makes sense now he doesn't eat red meat, because it is cruel to kill a cow.  It is ok to kill turkeys by the thousands, because they have a toejam life anyway, even though they are treated worse than any Heffer, that was bread for her beef, and her calf.  Not to mention the fact he is to young to get all the vitamins and minerals from beer and whiskey, so we have found the problem.  His mommy and daddy wont or cant buy beef, he is iron deficient and is a liberal, mommy and daddy wont pay for his AH and he is but hurt. he has the Gimme Gimme syndrome and a low self esteem problem.  So penguin belly up to the buffet get some crap cooked red meat and you will feel all better, but make sure it is rare, with a little ground pepper.  Then after a good golden coral 9.95 all you can eat beef fest go home watch some good sleep aid videos, on your iPad, iPhone, or Android, only the free ones though, they dont ask for your age, and dont require a credit card, be one with yourself and your hand and get to bed at a descent time. 

Liberal?  Hardly, I'm of neither extreme.  Let's not get into that.

I eat read meat, just on occaision.  I usually eat chicken for dinner, but sometimes we have pork loin.  It lasts about three days and supplies us with breakfast, lunch, and dinner meat.  I'm not iron deficient, I just got bloodwork done a few weeks ago (kidney stone caused by eating canned food while on the ship coupled with a lowered water intake).

There's a difference between 'Gimme Gimme' and realizing that the system is flawed.  'Gimme Gimme' is asking for something you don't need/couldn't use (e.g., gimme an iPad, gimme a cookie, gimme a car).  Teens could definitely use more sleep it helps them to not be so moody.  Sleep is the period when your body regulates hormones, not to mention the fact that tired people are cranky.

There's a difference between not needing something and not getting it.  Sure, you can survive with little sleep, but not getting enough restricts your potential.  Just because you guys didn't get it doesn't mean that we shouldn't.  In my travels throughout my school, only one kid managed to get eight hours of sleep.  The rest have bags under their eyes that are so dark that I can spot them from about twenty feet away.  Kids don't need more sleep than they did before, according to you, they often didn't get it.  In fact, if you want to play crotchety old man, my mom and dad grew up in the 50s and 60s and their high school started at 8:30.  It wasn't just true in the US, my mom is from Poland and it was true there, too.

I am complaining because the current system is wrong as shown by the data, and the experience of my peers and me.  The fact that you suffered does not mean that we ought to.

I'm still working on getting my study onto the web.  I forgot to bring it to school with me, but now it's in my backpack, all ready to go.

-Penguin

[GNucks]

I am complaining because the current system is wrong as shown by the data, and the experience of my peers and me.  The fact that you suffered does not mean that we ought to.

Have you actually shared with us any data yet? I've seen quotes from people with expensive educations but if you shared any data I must've missed it.

[canacka]

So basically in a nutshell, You don't want to wake up early and want to sleep.  Join the rest of us! You keep blaming things on something else which is sad because it seems in today's society that is the trend.  Dude, get your butt up and go to school!  It's not hard, but then again if your lazy and want things catered to you then go ahead and present this.  You won't get far.  Have some drive son, really.  If you put it in your mind you need to wake up at a certain time, you will with practice.  I understand you are young and I'm only trying to help you with all my posts but it doesn't get better.  The hormones you talk of doesn't matter.  As an adult, I would love to sleep in and get more sleep but it isn't possible.  Get used to it and look at this experience as training you for real life.  If your smart, your grades won't be affected.  I bet you have a straight A student in your class and I bet most of the kids in your class have a B average.  And don't say no, they have a D average because they don't.  You have a problem waking up, and that's true with some people.  But it's you that has do deal with it and figure out a way to move on.  If not, and you want things changed to fit you, then you are going to have a real hard time in the real world.


No he hasn't shared info.  Don't know why but I think it hurts his case thus no info.

[gyrene81]

I am complaining because the current system is wrong as shown by the data, and the experience of my peers and me.  The fact that you suffered does not mean that we ought to.

I'm still working on getting my study onto the web.  I forgot to bring it to school with me, but now it's in my backpack, all ready to go.

-Penguin

the only thing "wrong" with the system is your flawed thinking. there is no data that shows anything but known metabolic changes in adolescent physiology, that's it. you're own sources show it, yet you refuse to acknowledge anything but what you have convinced yourself to be irrefutable facts. your problem is lifestyle, you get too much sugar/carbohydrates in your diet, you spend most of your time in sedentary activities which keeps your body from using the excess energy your body stores, and your adolescent mind is in an overactive state due to pubescent physiological changes.

what your theory doesn't take into consideration is the effects on the students, their parents and the teachers. later school start times could also have the effect of students going to sleep later. parents who drop their children off at school before going to work would have to make other arrangements, which could cost money as well as added concern over their children's well being which in turn would affect their job peformance. teachers schedules being what they are would be affected worse than the students and parents, not to mention many teachers are parents of school age children. after school programs would be heavily affected. athletic events would have to start later, thus ending later, which would cause those involved in sports and those who enjoy watching them to end up having to stay up later at night in order to prepare for the next day.

your research is flawed, as is your commentary.