Author Topic: On Sleep and its Deprivation  (Read 5281 times)

Offline canacka

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Re: On Sleep and its Deprivation
« Reply #105 on: October 12, 2011, 07:57:13 PM »
Bottom line is, you want to sleep.  You don't like waking up.  Welcome to the world! 

Grow up, stop being lazy, and take some responsibility.  Forget the hormone argument it won't work.  We have all been there and to give you some advice, what I did was deal with it.  Go to bed, wake up early.  If your tired too bad and move on. 
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Offline Jayhawk

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Re: On Sleep and its Deprivation
« Reply #106 on: October 12, 2011, 08:04:28 PM »
I'm just amazed he still hasn't cited the article he is talking about.  He said he has a printed copy, there should be enough information there to at least have us find it.   I asked for that information earlier in the thread, but he didn't reply.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 08:17:13 PM by Jayhawk »
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: On Sleep and its Deprivation
« Reply #107 on: October 12, 2011, 08:06:01 PM »
I'm just amazed he still hasn't cited the article is talking about.  He said he has a printed copy, there should be enough information there to at least have us find it.
his hormones are blocking the internet...  :rolleyes: 

:lol   :lol   :lol
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Offline cohofly

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Re: On Sleep and its Deprivation
« Reply #108 on: October 12, 2011, 08:13:57 PM »
If you dont want to feel sleepy, stop eating the Turkey, its well known that it contains fairly high levels of Tryptophan, an amino acid that produces drowsiness.
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Offline canacka

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Re: On Sleep and its Deprivation
« Reply #109 on: October 12, 2011, 09:12:49 PM »
I'm just amazed he still hasn't cited the article he is talking about.  He said he has a printed copy, there should be enough information there to at least have us find it.   I asked for that information earlier in the thread, but he didn't reply.

I've asked four times and yet still no article.
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Offline Penguin

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Re: On Sleep and its Deprivation
« Reply #110 on: October 12, 2011, 09:13:43 PM »
So basically in a nutshell, You don't want to wake up early and want to sleep.  Join the rest of us! You keep blaming things on something else which is sad because it seems in today's society that is the trend.  Dude, get your butt up and go to school!  It's not hard, but then again if your lazy and want things catered to you then go ahead and present this.  You won't get far.  Have some drive son, really.  If you put it in your mind you need to wake up at a certain time, you will with practice.  I understand you are young and I'm only trying to help you with all my posts but it doesn't get better.  The hormones you talk of doesn't matter.  As an adult, I would love to sleep in and get more sleep but it isn't possible.  Get used to it and look at this experience as training you for real life.  If your smart, your grades won't be affected.  I bet you have a straight A student in your class and I bet most of the kids in your class have a B average.  And don't say no, they have a D average because they don't.  You have a problem waking up, and that's true with some people.  But it's you that has do deal with it and figure out a way to move on.  If not, and you want things changed to fit you, then you are going to have a real hard time in the real world.


No he hasn't shared info.  Don't know why but I think it hurts his case thus no info.

Your argument is based on the flawed assumption that I'm lazy.  I walk home from school an hour each day.  It's not a sport, but it's better than taking the bus.  I'd walk in the morning, too, but then I'd have to get up at 5:00.

lol, you don't know manual labor, and probably never will.  :lol unless you get a job on a commercial fishing boat or with a construction company. it's also extremely obvious you haven't done any research on the effects of carbohydrates on the body. you probably didn't know starch or carbohydrates are metabolized as sugar. processed turkey=enhanced with sugar, bread=carbohydrate, orange juice=enhanced sucrose, apple=sucrose, pasta=carbohydrate, rice=carbohydrate, ice cream=sugar.

you get way more sugar in your diet than you think...stop blaming it on hormones, there are more factors involved than your hormones. the data is there, just look for it. it won't be on wikipedia.


I'd disagree, we had to keep that ship moving 24 hours a day, sails only (except if it were over a force 6 or if we were in port).  The boom and gaff on the mainsail and foresail each weighed one ton.  There was also the half-ton boom of the staysail, and the two jibs.  We had to lift those things by hand twice a day, if not more, and do the tacking ourselves (no mean feat considering that our jibs were four stories tall).  The oldest among us was 19, the average age was 14, and the youngest was 12.  The instructors weren't much help, either, even at twice or three times our strength it took the entire crew to haul the sails up.  Don't even get me started on the dinghies and anchor.  If we weren't in port, we were hiking through the forest and doing construction work for programs for troubled kids.  We didn't fish, but it was gruelling considering how young we were.

Every energy source metabolises into sugar (glucose) in the end.  You're right.  There isn't anything else that our cells can handle.  If you tried to metabolise entire large carboyhdrate molecules at once inside even the hardiest cells, the cells would explode.  That's why energy goes down to adenosine triphosphate (ATP), it's a more manageable chunk of energy.  If you remember your highschool biology class the name krebs cycle should also ring a bell. Furthermore, we need carbohydrates (or at least large amounts of protein) to survive.  They serve as our main energy resource.  You must be joking about me eating too many calories.  I weigh 120 pounds- I'm a stick figure (not proud of it, some muscle would be useful).

I'm very well aware that carbohydrates have an effect on the body.  The body will either store them or immediately metabolise them upon consumption.  Metabolism consists of breaking the carbs down into glucose, then glycolisis,  the Krebs Cycle, and finally the electron transport system.  First in the cycle comes glycolisis (breaking glucose down into pyruvate, which gives 2 ATP) then the krebs cycle (which converts pyruvate into NAD+H+).  Finally, the electron transport system uses the product of the krebs cycle to produce ATP, which cells use for energy.  Carbohydrates are not caffeine, and 23 studies (all published in the Journal of the American Medical Association) on the subject are testament to the fact that sugars have no effect on activity levels.  My sources are Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperactivity#Sugar_consumption) and The Straight Dope (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2747/does-giving-sweets-to-kids-produce-a-sugar-rush).  

I've asked four times and yet still no article.

I'm working on it!  I forgot to take it to school today.

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Offline gyrene81

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Re: On Sleep and its Deprivation
« Reply #111 on: October 12, 2011, 10:06:43 PM »
 :rofl   :lol  sometimes i feel sorry for you penguin but, you bring it on yourself. you do a grand job of copy/paste but you have no real idea what you're reading. i never said a word about hyperactivity, nor calories, another fail.
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Offline skorpion

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Re: On Sleep and its Deprivation
« Reply #112 on: October 12, 2011, 10:27:53 PM »
penguin-no offense, but your failing so bad you make me look good.


hormones have nothing to do with sleep, let alone the place of the sun... :rolleyes:

Offline Penguin

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Re: On Sleep and its Deprivation
« Reply #113 on: October 12, 2011, 11:03:49 PM »
:rofl   :lol  sometimes i feel sorry for you penguin but, you bring it on yourself. you do a grand job of copy/paste but you have no real idea what you're reading. i never said a word about hyperactivity, nor calories, another fail.

Nope, that's what I learned about metabolism last year in Biology.  I got 92% correct on the SATII in Biology, even though the teacher didn't cover some of it (plant biology: xylems, phoelems, photosynthesis and all that good stuff).  I can explain any of it to you.

Quote
it's also extremely obvious you haven't done any research on the effects of carbohydrates on the body. you probably didn't know starch or carbohydrates are metabolized as sugar. processed turkey=enhanced with sugar, bread=carbohydrate, orange juice=enhanced sucrose, apple=sucrose, pasta=carbohydrate, rice=carbohydrate, ice cream=sugar.

you get way more sugar in your diet than you think...stop blaming it on hormones, there are more factors involved than your hormones. the data is there, just look for it. it won't be on wikipedia.

What other sleep-reducing effects do you propose that carbohydrates and sugar have?  Noise-making?  Explosive diharrea?  Implosive diharrea?  You made a mistake, now man up and admit it.

penguin-no offense, but your failing so bad you make me look good.


hormones have nothing to do with sleep, let alone the place of the sun... :rolleyes:

Let's see how well that statement stands up to scholarly work:

A quick google search turned up around 10,000 articles concerning the circadian rythym and the effect of hormones on it.  Here's an excerpt from one, and links to more.

Quote
Release of melatonin into the circulation by the pineal occurs almost exclusively during the nighttime hours. It has been proposed that this daily rhythm, like that of body temperature, reflects the output of a central circadian pacemaker in humans. In order to investigate the relationship of the circadian rhythms of body temperature and melatonin in humans and compare their resetting responses to light, we characterized the endogenous 24-h profiles of these rhythms in eight young male adults during constant routines before and after exposure to a stimulus consisting of bright light, room light, and darkness/sleep.

We found that the time of the fitted maximum of the endogenous melatonin rhythm consistently preceded the fitted temperature minimum by a mean ± se of 1.8 ± 0.2 h. Bright-light exposure induced substantial and equivalent phase shifts of the melatonin and temperature rhythms (mean ± se difference in the phase-shifting response, 0.03 ± 0.32 h), and the body temperature and melatonin rhythms thus maintained their usual phase relationship even after light-induced circadian phase inversion. These results are consistent with the hypothesis that the endogenous circadian components of both the plasma melatonin and body temperature rhythms are generated by a single central circadian pacemaker in humans. Furthermore, using the time of the fitted temperature minimum as a reference standard, we found that the fitted maximum of the endogenous 24-h melatonin profile was a more reliable phase marker than the onset of the nocturnal rise of melatonin (F = 4.48; P < 0.01).

This one concerns how the light (the sun) affects melatonin patterns:
http://endo.endojournals.org/content/98/2/482.short

This one concerns melatonin's secretion and its reactions with the body:
http://edrv.endojournals.org/content/12/2/151.short

Please note that these articles are pay-per-view, so I wasn't able to read them completely.  The abstracts and excerpts should testify to their legitimacy.

-Penguin

Offline canacka

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Re: On Sleep and its Deprivation
« Reply #114 on: October 13, 2011, 07:44:48 AM »
Still though, it doesn't mean you can't adjust to times you need to wake up.  The natural cycle you refer to is like it is with animals.  Fall asleep, and wake up on your own naturally, no alarm clock and no set time you should be waking up.  You make it sound like it's impossible.  Trying not to go hard on ya, so don't take it that way.
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: On Sleep and its Deprivation
« Reply #115 on: October 13, 2011, 08:29:32 AM »
Nope, that's what I learned about metabolism last year in Biology.  I got 92% correct on the SATII in Biology, even though the teacher didn't cover some of it (plant biology: xylems, phoelems, photosynthesis and all that good stuff).  I can explain any of it to you.

What other sleep-reducing effects do you propose that carbohydrates and sugar have?  Noise-making?  Explosive diharrea?  Implosive diharrea?  You made a mistake, now man up and admit it.
little man you're so full of b.s. not even midway can hold a candle to you. now you're trying to tell us that your biology teacher is as dumb as you are. if you're as pretentious in school as you are here, i'm betting you were marvelling at your own genius rather than paying attention. i see i have to once again spell it out for you...

the only visible astute ability you have is a lack of cognitive reading skills. your wikipedia and straight dope references are 100% irrelevant. i never even eluded to hyperactivity or childhood sugar rush, that's just what you chose to see. as usual in your infinite attempts to appear more intelligent than you are, you discovered a single possible cause for your sleeping issues and failed to research all of the possible causes. my reference to the amount of sugar you consume in a day was based on one known contributing factor to delayed sleeping problems. sugar is what the body uses for energy and your sedentary lifestyle (i.e. less than average physical activity) combined with the late hour that you consume sugar could be causing your brain to maintain an energy cycle when it should be preparing for rest. that is not to say it is the only factor, unlike your hormone assertion. do more research and not on wikipedia. sugar and caffeine consumption within just a few hours of your anticipated sleep time can cause insomnia or just a delay in your ability to fall asleep. more than one of your references discussed chronotherapy, which happens to also be a treatment for delayed sleep phase syndrome. your references also included references to the circadian rhythm and krebs cycle, which you should have researched more thoroughly to find how they are affected by various disorders and that adolescent hormonal imbalance is just one possible contributing factor.
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Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline ink

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Re: On Sleep and its Deprivation
« Reply #116 on: October 13, 2011, 08:35:53 AM »
if this were a boxing match...sorry penguin but you woulda been KO'd

Offline 2ADoc

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Re: On Sleep and its Deprivation
« Reply #117 on: October 13, 2011, 08:47:35 AM »
Wait guys, we really should encourage him to do this, if he does manage to push it through, not likely, but if he does think about it.  They will have to extend the school day and extra hour, to make up for the time missed.  So we won't have to dog fight with all the soccer moms while driving to work, and they will have less time in public.  So we won't have to deal with the little school rats while we are running errands after work.  So there will be less squeakers in public.  Next we could get him to rally for the year long school then we would have to worry about them at all.  If it does work maybe we could get a law passed that squeakers are not allowed in public at all.  You know some cities do have a curfew.

Oh what a world that would be.
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Offline Penguin

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Re: On Sleep and its Deprivation
« Reply #118 on: October 13, 2011, 10:02:44 PM »
little man you're so full of b.s. not even midway can hold a candle to you. now you're trying to tell us that your biology teacher is as dumb as you are. if you're as pretentious in school as you are here, i'm betting you were marvelling at your own genius rather than paying attention. i see i have to once again spell it out for you...

the only visible astute ability you have is a lack of cognitive reading skills. your wikipedia and straight dope references are 100% irrelevant. i never even eluded to hyperactivity or childhood sugar rush, that's just what you chose to see. as usual in your infinite attempts to appear more intelligent than you are, you discovered a single possible cause for your sleeping issues and failed to research all of the possible causes. my reference to the amount of sugar you consume in a day was based on one known contributing factor to delayed sleeping problems. sugar is what the body uses for energy and your sedentary lifestyle (i.e. less than average physical activity) combined with the late hour that you consume sugar could be causing your brain to maintain an energy cycle when it should be preparing for rest. that is not to say it is the only factor, unlike your hormone assertion. do more research and not on wikipedia. sugar and caffeine consumption within just a few hours of your anticipated sleep time can cause insomnia or just a delay in your ability to fall asleep. more than one of your references discussed chronotherapy, which happens to also be a treatment for delayed sleep phase syndrome. your references also included references to the circadian rhythm and krebs cycle, which you should have researched more thoroughly to find how they are affected by various disorders and that adolescent hormonal imbalance is just one possible contributing factor.

You asserted that I'm ignorant, and I replied.  Marvelling at my own genius would be posting those scores off the cuff.

You also made two other assumptions- that I consume sugar and caffeine before bed.  The only caffeine that I ever consume any more is black tea if I'm feeling under the weather and want something warm.  I never eat sugar before bed because dinner is usually at 5-6, with dessert shortly thereafter.

Would you seriously entertain the thought of funding chronotherapy for over 800 kids?  The cost would be staggering, and look at the side-effects.  In three cases, it permanatly damaged the circadian clock to such an extent that the individual could never go back to a 24-hour cycle.  The safety is also not fully known- it's not something that one should do without their doctor's supervision.

The delayed sleep phase syndrome that you refer to does not explain the staggering number of kids who are wide awake at 22:00.  The disorder only affects 3 in 2,000 indviduals.  If your assertion were correct, the inverse would be true in my school.

Wait guys, we really should encourage him to do this, if he does manage to push it through, not likely, but if he does think about it.  They will have to extend the school day and extra hour, to make up for the time missed.  So we won't have to dog fight with all the soccer moms while driving to work, and they will have less time in public.  So we won't have to deal with the little school rats while we are running errands after work.  So there will be less squeakers in public.  Next we could get him to rally for the year long school then we would have to worry about them at all.  If it does work maybe we could get a law passed that squeakers are not allowed in public at all.  You know some cities do have a curfew.

Oh what a world that would be.

It's funny that you mention that, later end times mean more parental supervision and less time for kids to get into trouble.

-Penguin

Offline Jayhawk

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Re: On Sleep and its Deprivation
« Reply #119 on: October 13, 2011, 10:41:02 PM »
Still didn't get that source I see.
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