Should A20 loose it's F3 mode

[icepac]

I've only been killed 4 times in my entire aces high career by heavy bombers performing the lancstuka routine.

No excuses needed.

[IrishOne]

I get my visual lineups for bombing GV's w/ all bombers from lining up w/ things in my cockpit.  You'll stilll get bomb****ed by a heavy buff at 2000 feet without F3...  What'll be your excuse then?

bombing GV's is a very fun sport    (mostly because of how the GVers react to it  )      

on topic now, i'm on the fence about the whole F3 in A20s debate.   on one hand, we know A20s didn't do this IRL, which, in my mind, classifies it as "gamey," but on the other hand, if a guy can achieve success throwing a bomber around in a dogfight, well then more power to him, right?             since i can't decide, my vote would be to leave it as is.   like it has been said earlier in this thread, if you can't beat an A20 in a dogfight, and you're flying a fighter, you best get some lessons.    regardless of who is flying the A20.    

[JUGgler]

Find it funny people talking about realism here, people getting owned by a il2 wasn't real but neither was 30 planes setting up a field for a score vulch, or for that matter being dead a few hundred times in a month thats not real, were do you draw the line?

Its a game at the end of the day, you should be able to see an opponent in a game. I always found the il2 crying situation to be unreal how did players get lazy enough to make the il2 such a problem to kill? From the op comments I take it people are using it as the IL2 used to be and you are unhappy that people using it can see you coming and maneuver to avoid you killing them??

And here it is   . I haven't played in a while but I suspect the changes to the IL2 have brought the A20 to the front of the class for base defence. It is really the only other ride that has the guns to be "quickly decisive" against the "realistic and much prefered" way most play of vulch vulch vulch  . F3 has always been a stickler and I have actually changed my position on this a couple times and I've come to a few conclusions about F3 and its use in AH.


#1- F3 view is much easier to pull lead and track targets under the nose, this makes F3 view very superior to even the fighters with the best views (at least in regards to the aquisition and tracking of your target)


#2- Only the best of players will be able to use F3 to any advantage, most cannot grasp the timing difference tween cockpit and F3.


#3- F3 DOES give very superior "situational awareness" compared to any plane that lacks F3


#4- Shooting in F3 "contrary to popular belief" is very very easy and in some respects superior to cockpit view


#5- The gameplay with its "horde and vulch" bases mentality requires some sort of plane or defense against them, the il2 and A20 fill to a limited degree this requirement.


 I'm still torn on the issue but I'll say this- IF the gameplay could be altered to limit the silliness of being able to set up "riskless" vulches then I would support removing F3. The only reason there is vulching is because it is possible to "stack the deck" in favor of them. If ANY hangar could launch ANY vehicle or plane then the "would be" vulchers would have to be decisive in their intentions. I.E destroy and take the base OR stand off from the base and fight with overwhelming altitude and #s advantage!  




JUGgler

[Krusty]

Juggler, you are wrong on #2. It's very much a newbie tool. It gives you the best lead and best SA view (the camera is trailing the plan so you can even see things sideways or up/down without moving your view)

I disagree that the A-20 will replace the Il2... The instant snapshot 1-ping-kill cannons and the near invulnerability to gunfire made the IL2 unique. The A-20 doesn't quite handle or fly the same, also only have 6x50cal. It's not even in the same category, even if flown as a fighter.

[JUGgler]

Juggler, you are wrong on #2. It's very much a newbie tool. It gives you the best lead and best SA view (the camera is trailing the plan so you can even see things sideways or up/down without moving your view)

I disagree that the A-20 will replace the Il2... The instant snapshot 1-ping-kill cannons and the near invulnerability to gunfire made the IL2 unique. The A-20 doesn't quite handle or fly the same, also only have 6x50cal. It's not even in the same category, even if flown as a fighter.

We will agree to diagree on #2 , maybe I should have said F3 view being used by bombers as fighters, only  the best will have success!:salute

The second point, I meant the A20 is the next best tool with F3 for base defence since the change to the il2!!



JUGgler

[Nathan60]

well  Im sure we can compromise  and  simply disable fireing in F3 mode.

[Krusty]

Jugler, It's 10x easier in F3 mode... A 2 weeker can aim with precision and drop bombs with perfect accuracy because of the visibility offered. It's not about the skilled ones succeeeding, it's about every player no matter how green succeeding... It's really that easy to get stuff done in F3 mode. There's a reason the newbies in HTH land used it as a crutch as much as they used the lead computing gunsight.

Did you see the video I put up of me killing an F4U in the LWA with a bomber in F3 mode? I wouldn't have lasted 2 turns in F1 view only.

[JUGgler]

Jugler, It's 10x easier in F3 mode... A 2 weeker can aim with precision and drop bombs with perfect accuracy because of the visibility offered. It's not about the skilled ones succeeeding, it's about every player no matter how green succeeding... It's really that easy to get stuff done in F3 mode. There's a reason the newbies in HTH land used it as a crutch as much as they used the lead computing gunsight.

Did you see the video I put up of me killing an F4U in the LWA with a bomber in F3 mode? I wouldn't have lasted 2 turns in F1 view only.

I'm fully aware of the advantages of F3 view, my alter ego being the Boston Strangler and the frequenter of the FU88 and all! F3 improving your gunnery and SA is not the same as knowing what to do with planes the likes of the JU88, Boston, A20, il2 etc etc. The angles, timing, flap use and energy conservation are very much reserved for those who know what to do with them! <-- This is my point!



JUGgler

[Krusty]

I guess I just disagree and will leave it at that. IMO you don't need to know the timings and tricks if you can see it all and be purely reactionary.


On with the debate!

[icepac]

I'm really not concerned with the advantages of F3 mode vs other planes.

My commenting is geared toward heavy buffs using views outside the plane to bomb targets they would never have seen with a realistic view.

[Krusty]

Well... that's another area I suppose. The heavies do need to have enhanced visibility... but after a certain point I think they have TOO much view. There's no blindspots anymore. No historical weaknesses in these bombers. You can't even sneak up under a Lancaster, below a B-26 or so forth.

[Shane]

I think most poepl realize the value and essential role f3 plays in multi-crew craft.

It's all about the guns (or bombs;) disabling firing resolves the main issue of contention and allows F3 to better fit it's design purpose. imho.

[JUGgler]

maybe F3 should be from a vantage point connected to the plane. Meaning when in F3 you are seeing a view as if you were say centerline on top of the fuselage or centerline on bottom of fuselage. This would do 2 things #1 allow planes that had no views from their underside to be restricted and whichever mode you're in the actual plane intself would be restricting some portion of view ie: from the top view you would not be able to see below or in a progressive cone spreading downward and outward from the plane. Ofcourse these views would not be able to be adjusted by F10! each view "looking away from the plane" would be unrestricted but you could not see thru or past the wings and fuselage without changing F3 views. F3A and F3B   for unrestricted nose or tail views, you could merely get in the nose or cockpit or tail gun if applicable! And no shoosting from either view! This would still give excellent visibility with reasonable restriction and management requirements!

In other words F3 would be hemisphere specific!

JUGgler

[Megalodon]

Yes!... it should be removed from the MA.

[wil3ur]

We will agree to diagree on #2 , maybe I should have said F3 view being used by bombers as fighters, only  the best will have success!:salute

The second point, I meant the A20 is the next best tool with F3 for base defence since the change to the il2!!



JUGgler

I have to disagree with your premise.  A20 has moved to the forefront because the IL2 requires a fighter hangar to up when the base is vulched.  I've quit using them because I find the A20 and Hurricane IID to be more difficult to assault GV's with, and thus more fun for me.  The A20 is simply one of the better armed bombers in the game as far as the forward arc goes, and is semi-manuverable.  I can almost guarantee that if the A20 was moved to a FH, without ridding itself of F3, you'd see a drop and people would complain less because their vulch is that much easier.  As a secondary, you would also see the B26 most likely fill the same roll and REALLY piss people off with it's rear gunnery....