convergence

[mtnman]

Some diagrams to give a visual to what I'm describing...

[bustr]

I'm not sure I've ever read over the years how HiTech and Pyro decided to make the gunnery work. Unless you have had that privilege.

The autocanon and motorkanon are allowed to be tilted slightly in the engine to interact with the convergence app in the hanger since convergence and the gunsight line seems to be tied to a logical primary weapon. So thats a comprimise with reality and game function. What I've graphed simply looks like the gunsight line relationship to gun trajectories was chosen from the 109F/G/K armeror handbooks to fit within the limits of a computer screen will giving you the illusion of depth of feild. The target is locked to the center line of the aircraft so your only real refrence is remembering your patterning sight picture at whatever range you set (.target xxxx). Pull up the target on the tarmak and drive your ride right up to it. The center of the target will touch your spinner.

It looks like AH gunnery is a comprimise with our computers, not an exact replication of the manner in real life each fighter had it's guns and gunsight line set to. But, it's a very convincing comprimise. Ala this graphics art competition we are engaged in......

[mtnman]

I'm not sure I've ever read over the years how HiTech and Pyro decided to make the gunnery work. Unless you have had that privilege.

The autocanon and motorkanon are allowed to be tilted slightly in the engine to interact with the convergence app in the hanger since convergence and the gunsight line seems to be tied to a logical primary weapon. So thats a comprimise with reality and game function. What I've graphed simply looks like the gunsight line relationship to gun trajectories was chosen from the 109F/G/K armeror handbooks to fit within the limits of a computer screen will giving you the illusion of depth of feild. The target is locked to the center line of the aircraft so your only real refrence is remembering your patterning sight picture at whatever range you set (.target xxxx). Pull up the target on the tarmak and drive your ride right up to it. The center of the target will touch your spinner.

It looks like AH gunnery is a comprimise with our computers, not an exact replication of the manner in real life each fighter had it's guns and gunsight line set to. But, it's a very convincing comprimise. Ala this graphics art competition we are engaged in......

Nope, the target isn't locked to the center of your aircraft.  Point your nose up or down, the center of target isn't lined up with your spinner anymore.

It's center is tied to the altitude of your aircraft (and likely a certain part of your aircraft, maybe the spinner).  It's "level" with your aircraft/spinner.  This allows you to place your LoS level with the target, and see that the rounds really do come above the LoS.

The effect you see would occur with any airplane in the RW as well.  The LoS will change angle as the wing of the plane changes AoA with varying speeds.

[icepac]

I only set convergence for the vertical and ignore horizontal convergence by using the target.

I also spread convergence very slightly (minimum difference possible without being the same convergence) in any plane that has many same type guns like the p47.

[mtnman]

I'm not sure I've ever read over the years how HiTech and Pyro decided to make the gunnery work. Unless you have had that privilege.

The autocanon and motorkanon are allowed to be tilted slightly in the engine to interact with the convergence app in the hanger since convergence and the gunsight line seems to be tied to a logical primary weapon. So thats a comprimise with reality and game function. What I've graphed simply looks like the gunsight line relationship to gun trajectories was chosen from the 109F/G/K armeror handbooks to fit within the limits of a computer screen will giving you the illusion of depth of feild. The target is locked to the center line of the aircraft so your only real refrence is remembering your patterning sight picture at whatever range you set (.target xxxx). Pull up the target on the tarmak and drive your ride right up to it. The center of the target will touch your spinner.

It looks like AH gunnery is a comprimise with our computers, not an exact replication of the manner in real life each fighter had it's guns and gunsight line set to. But, it's a very convincing comprimise. Ala this graphics art competition we are engaged in......

I don't think I understand what you're questioning?

Of course the game is designed to fit within the limits of a computer screen while giving the illusion of depth of field.  The gunnery is just one aspect of that (as are the buildings or the mountains)...

I've heard your argument regarding the idea that the 109 through-engine mounts shouldn't be adjustable, and don't question that.  I'm unsure of whether the engine was mounted with any positive, negative, or side/side incidence.  Should the guns even point straight forward?  Or should they point up and to one side, etc?

The "remembering your sight picture" is a no-brainer too.  I'm not sure what you mean by that?

Other than the fact that the gun angle is adjustable, I haven't seen any "surprises" with the 109 projectile trajectory?

[Krusty]

From past discussions ranging all the way back to the beginning, I think Bustr has a wrong idea of how AH models the convergence. It used to be the convergence point was the apogee of the bullet arc, then after one point somewhere down the line I believe they changed it to reflect more accurately so the bullet went up and then fell down through the convergence point.

The gunsight does not change. You can tell this by simple screenshot comparison of the same plane with 100yd convergence vs 650 yard convergence...


Really... such a funny notion! Sorry Bustr but I'm pretty sure if you do a LOT more reading on the forums you'll find all your answers. Search kind of works now, so have at it.

[bustr]

Actually I've made a large scale arse of myself from trying to determine if the convergence app in the hanger tilts the motor mounted/historicly locked cannons in the game to allow you to hit gunsight center at the ranges past 150. Thats another story. While pulling data to support my assertion I went beyond motor mounted guns assuming the results would be transferable. I apologise to everyone.

I re-did all of my data collection yesterday at 250mph TA auto leveled. That appears to be a consistant speed for all of the fighters to duplicate putting them up on blocks and leveling them at a firing range. Using bore sighting diagrams or manuals for different aircraft I was able to duplicate within tollerances all of the expected trajectories because not all countries use yards.

Many of the historic diagrams we use are visually missleading in how high above the gunsight center line MG and auto cannon rounds travel in their ballistic arch. At 300-400 yards 9inches to 2ft is only about .25-1.5 Mil or roughly the width of a 2-3 pixel thick tick mark in your gunsight. As a consolation prize the gunsights I've been attempting to recreate in {512x512 (1MIl = 2Pixel )}as accuratly as possible seem to work like the manuals and other sources have described now.

I wish an offline static convergence and ballistics testing module was available with your aircraft leveled on blocks on a 90ft cliff or mound while you shoot at the 180ft dia. target. I don't think shooting at a 50 or 100 yard target leveled on the ground would be very helpful for most players visulisation of thier down range bullet streams considering the way the game is played and ranges many open up from or try to stop runners at.

Again my apologies.

[dtrip61]

Aww hell.  If we had anything important to be doing we wouldn't have been following the thread anyway.  No sweat.  Enough with the apologies!

-dtrip

[mtnman]

Actually I've made a large scale arse of myself...

I certainly don't see it that way...  No need to apologize either...

Just healthy discussion about a pretty dang confusing subject.  The fact that we're working in a simulated environment with simulated tools and conversing through an easily-misunderstood media doesn't help.  And believe it or not I came to the same conclusions you did when I started digging into all of this a few years back!

You're right, I think it would be nice to have a bore-sighting range set-up, where anyone could learn about trajectories and convergence settings with little variability.  Maybe something to toss into the Wishlist forum?

[The Fugitive]

I set my convergence at 300. I try not to shoot until the range drops to 200. How many airplane lengths do I lead 90 degrees off, 45 degrees off, and strait 6 shot? Were talking horizontal and vertical lead here. What are your suggestions?

I need a darn light on the dashboard that flashes "SHOOT NOW !"   

[mtnman]

I set my convergence at 300. I try not to shoot until the range drops to 200. How many airplane lengths do I lead 90 degrees off, 45 degrees off, and strait 6 shot? Were talking horizontal and vertical lead here. What are your suggestions?

I need a darn light on the dashboard that flashes "SHOOT NOW !"   

It's going to sound like a smart-azz comment, but here it is...

It all depends!

I don't think there's any real point in giving you any real numbers when it comes to that, because it depends on too many factors, and too much judgement, at a time when you won't likely be able to run all the factors through your mind, make good judgements, recall the correct number/distance, and then apply that number/distance to your shot.

As an example, I've figured out how much to lead a running deer in order to hit it with my muzzleloading rifle.  I know that if it's running broadside at 100 yards at full speed, I need to lead it by "x" feet to hit it in the ribcage. 

That may be interesting, but how practical is it in the field?  Not all that practical, unfortunately, because there are too many variables in reality, and I don't have time to think about them in the brief opportunity I have to get a shot off.

Is the deer really 100 yards out?  Is it really running full speed?  Is it really running broadside, or is it quartering a bit?  Is full speed over a hayfield the same speed as full speed through soy beans?  Is that lead amount based on me swinging the rifle, or holding a set point in front of the deer?  Am I swinging with the deer, or did I start swinging from behind the deer and I'm pulling the muzzle out front?

Is it still running full speed after I've made those calculations/judgements?  Still broadside?  What was that number again?  And was that "x" number of feet in front of the deers nose, chest, or ribs?

Good thing I'm not excited, nervous, cold, or need to take a leak!  Good thing it's not a monster buck, just to distract me!  Good thing I haven't missed the last 3 deer I've shot at, to shake my confidence!  Or hit the last three, which could make me over-confident.

Now, that's standing with a rifle.  That doesn't include the complexities of an aircraft...  I'm I closing on him?  Or is he pulling away?  Am I banked?  Pulling G's?  Pointed upwards, downwards, or level??  Are you holding a sustained lead?  Or firing a snapshot as he crosses?  Is his apparent crossing speed due to his flight path, or mine instead?

[mtnman]

I think there's very good reason to become very familiar with how my tools/weapons work, and then pay attention to how different variables effect my/their performance.  I don't think anyone could give me a set of calculated numbers to help me out, or shorten the learning curve.  It takes "good" practice and a high level of dedication to really advance in skill.

Without a solid understanding of the how's and why's of the ballistics of your weapon, you really have no foundation or base to learn from.  But once you have that basis, it's time to forget about thinking about the numbers too much.

Besides, I really don't know the answer to your question...  The situation always deviates from the ideal.

We've got a pretty good QB playing for our team here in WI.  Do you think he watches his target before he throws, and says to himself "Self, I need to lead this guy by thirteen body widths when I throw him the ball, because he's this far away, and running that fast, and he's moving away at a 32 degree angle"?  I bet he doesn't.  I bet he concentrates really hard on what he's doing, and relies on muscle memory and past experience to get the job done.  Think how often he'd get sacked if he ran the numbers through his head each time he threw...  he knows how hard to throw, and how much lead he needs, because he's done it a bunch of times before, and his mind "just knows" how to do it again.

It's the same thing with gunnery.  It takes a lot of practice, and time, and paying attention to the results as you go.  You need to miss low, to learn how not to miss low.  You need to see your tracers pass behind your target, so you can remember to lead a bit more the next time this exact same shot presents itself.  You won't "remember" that you need to lead by "x.xx" body lengths to hit him though, you'll "just know" when it's right.

And you won't get better at shooting by reading about lead amounts, once you learn the basics of how the hardware works.  The hardware is a pretty solid "constant" though.  It behaves the same, following the same rules in given circumstances.  Learn it inside and out so it becomes a variable you can eliminate.

One tip-  "Aim small, miss small.  Aim big, miss big".  Pick a small target on your target, and try really hard to hit it.  If you just aim at the other guys plane, you'll miss his plane.  If you aim at the front edge of his canopy, you may miss the canopy but still hit his wing, or tail, or engine, etc...

[The Fugitive]

Ya I figured you were going to say everything you did.... well except the deer part 

I'm sure that my biggest problem, I just don't have the time to practice and get better. I'm just looking for some ballpark ideas.

[WOZ30BAT]

I don't post much but I read the BB a lot & I must say this has probably been the most informative thread on the BB that I have read since I joined game in 2001. Mtnmn you are the bomb.(compliment) I have the worst gunnery & get easily frustrated on trying to get a kill shot. I have tried different convergence settings & usually what happens to me is that I move my plane so much trying to get a shot and wind up burning all my E. My confidence gets shot & then basically after 1 firing pass I wind up extending. If I ever could get my gunnery skills up I know my kills will rise. I need to work on throttle management but heck, if keep missing my target I'm scared to slow down to try & make a shot.

[GNucks]

I use offline missions to practice gunnery. A good one imo is Coogan's Endurance mission. It's basically an AI furball and you get plenty of shot opportunities. Give yourself 10x ammo and shoot at the dumb drones turning all over the place for half an hour and you'll see improvement. It helped me get that repetition I needed that flying in the TA or DA or MA doesn't. Learning how to really fight is best done with a real person, but learning how to shoot is better done with two dozen drones.