convergence

[Tank-Ace]

I agree with you for the most part on this Krusty.  The real advantage I see with aiming at the center is that it allows you to calculate an actual measurement when it comes to "how high" or "how low".  That could be done with any known reference point though (i.e. aiming at the top or bottom of one of the rings).

The issue I see with the ultra-simple "oh I'm high" idea is that people also think "I'm just above the 10 ring, which ain't 1/2 bad".  In reality, that's 15 to 20 feet high!  Even hitting the top of the ten ring is bad (if you're aiming at the center), when you realize the center ring is 20 feet in diameter you could be shooting 8-10 feet high (or low) and still hit the ten ring.

When I first started, I tried the .target and found I could easily hit the ten ring, and I thought that was plenty good.  In reality, there's still more room to "miss" an airplane inside the ten ring than to hit one.  I quickly found out that I still had trouble hitting other planes, even if they appeared stationary right in front of me.

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The value of the .target isn't in sighting in, it's in learning how different convergence settings perform at the various ranges that aren't at convergence.

This doesn't look 1/2 bad...

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Until you see that if there'd been a plane there, it was really just a bunch of misses...

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And, if I hadn't been "locked onto" the center of the ring, I easily could have missed the up/down aspect, and assumed I'd be hitting my opponents wings.

I think it really comes down to how well you want to shoot, and whether or not you want to put any effort into it. 

In my case, getting good at shooting was easily the number one thing that raised my success level in the MA's.  It let me win more fights (even against guys that flew better than me) and it kept me alive long enough to learn to fly/fight.  It's effect on my overall SA was astronomical, because fights lasted just a few seconds for the most part, and I really only needed one shot opportunity.

109, problem solved  .

[mtnman]

Mtnman, we don't disagree on the issue, but I never had a problem noticing "I'm high" or "I'm low" when not locked into the center. Because wherever I was aimed was my center, and I could tell from my relatively-stationary crosshair that it was high or low. Same example as you but I just never needed the center to tell that.

IMO the trajectory of the guns is one thing, but shooting involves knowing when NOT to shoot more. Knowing the timing and positioning... I don't think convergence alone ever cost me a kill. If I truly had the kill my guns wouldn't matter 100 yards or 650. 'Course the trick for me is REALLY having the kill 

(that's the part I still work at!)

I think we're pretty much on the same page.

I guarantee convergence issues have cost me kills, time, SA, etc, though.  I know that simply because the convergence settings I use now are radically more effective than the ones I used in the past.  It is a combination though of having the right settings, and making shots that use that setting to its maximum advantage.

The combination of setting, distance of shot, and timing of shot all play together.  Even the length of the trigger pull is a factor (for me at least).  In the end, you still need to hit what you're shooting at, but you need to know where your bullets are going (and when) to do that consistently.

[mtnman]

109, problem solved  .

For one or two of the 109 pilots I've run into, you're correct!   

For the rest...  It doesn't appear to be the case 

[Tank-Ace]

Poor accuracy runs rampant in the MA's it seems. I've had people saddle up on me, fire at D400, and miss entirely. I suspect they would have continued to miss if I didn't start manuvering when I saw the mass of tracers pass by  my left wing.

[titanic3]

Poor accuracy runs rampant in the MA's it seems. I've had people saddle up on me, fire at D400, and miss entirely. I suspect they would have continued to miss if I didn't start manuvering when I saw the mass of tracers pass by  my left wing.

Sometimes, people expected you to turn or break in the direction they were aiming at. I sometimes do that if I can see that my target is about to turn. Fire ahead so they turn right into my bullets. They just didn't expect you not to do anything at all. 

[Tank-Ace]

IDK, I think I was pretty blatantly unaware of them. Its not like this was in the middle of a crowded furball or anything, this was during transit about 1/2 way between bases.

[titanic3]

Could be just newbies. You never know. Maybe even a warning shot by guys looking for a fight?

I know I once found an AFK guy. Flew as close as I could next to him. 2 minutes later and he suddenly breaks and goes into a stall. Guess he must've came back and saw my plane and jerked the stick.  Had a fun fight after he recovered.

[Tank-Ace]

I remember going afk, and comming back to see a "you have collided with" message.  upon PM, I'm informed that my plane plowed into the side of some poor Panzer IV driver while i was on autopilot.

[Peyton]

How about someone print a standard convergence for .50. .303, 30 mm, etc. for each plane.
Example: The Standard would be: All things being constant, Plane A traveling in a straight line, 250 MPH, to hit a target dead center (or to get a kill with most % of rounds hitting target) at 400 yards would set the convergence for Armament A to 350 .
This way we can print off the table like all the other tables we have. Don't worry about different AOAs, other plane traveling at you, wind, weight of bullet...just make a standard printable table.
With all of the posters knowledge (bstr, mtnmn, krusty, and all others) I know it can be done. Someone can make it simple.
Will it be exact?...NO, but it will give us noobs a good place to start.

Thanks

[mtnman]

How about someone print a standard convergence for .50. .303, 30 mm, etc. for each plane.
Example: The Standard would be: All things being constant, Plane A traveling in a straight line, 250 MPH, to hit a target dead center (or to get a kill with most % of rounds hitting target) at 400 yards would set the convergence for Armament A to 350 .
This way we can print off the table like all the other tables we have. Don't worry about different AOAs, other plane traveling at you, wind, weight of bullet...just make a standard printable table.
With all of the posters knowledge (bstr, mtnmn, krusty, and all others) I know it can be done. Someone can make it simple.
Will it be exact?...NO, but it will give us noobs a good place to start.

Thanks

What do you need a table for?

A good standard to start with is 300yds.  Fire when the icon counter changes to D200 (which is at 299yds).

That's a good, effective range for all the guns in the game.  There aren't any where this would be a "wrong" or "bad" setting (although some will of course argue for different settings preferences; I have a definite preference for 275 myself).  There are a few rounds where 300yds is probably on the "long" side (.303's, etc).  There aren't any where it's too close though.

It'll work for wing-mounts, and it'll work for nose mounts.  MG's and cannons.  Axis and Allied planes.

Effectively, there are 3 "sweet spot" ranges within the AH convergence limits; 100yd, 300yd, and 500yd.  These are sweet spots because you have the ability to "know" when you are that far from your opponent, because this is the distance where the icon counter changes.  Firing at your opponent when he's at the right distance makes a huge difference (if you can hit him).  This includes the .303's.  Setting them in closer may make them more effective, but it's overshadowed by the ability to know when your target is at convergence IMO.  These rounds are really the only ones I'd be tempted to set in to 150-200yds or so (and then wait until I'm close enough to fire at that range).

Setting it to 100yd will cause you problems.  And setting it to 500 will never give you the power that 300 will, because even at convergence (max effectiveness) the 500yd setting is giving you a wide pattern due to the dispersal modeling (and that's assuming you're an absolutely, devastatingly accurate shot).  A 300yd setting give you more "power" at convergence, while still being fine for closer and further shots.

Hitting a plane at 500yds with a 500yd convergence isn't appreciably more effective than hitting him at 500yds with a 300yd convergence setting.  But hitting him at 300 with your convergence set to 300 is more effective by far than hitting him at 300 with a 500yd setting.

Nose mounts are more forgiving, and you won't really be penalized for setting them way out as far as they'll go.  There really isn't much difference between a nose mount set to 650 vs one set to 300 though, so 300 certainly won't hurt you.

With a setting of @300yds, if you're still not finding the guns as effective as you think they should be then convergence isn't your problem and adjusting it in or out isn't going to help.

[mtnman]

It really is as simple as that.

The value of studying convergence isn't in tailoring a "custom" trajectory to suit your needs.  And the difficulties many claim to have with cannons isn't going to go away with all the convergence tweaking in the world.

The value of studying convergence is knowing where your rounds will be at different distances and bank angles, which allows you to mentally compensate for those shot opportunities where placing your gun sight right on your target would cause you to miss (which is almost every single shot you'll ever take in AH, BTW).

IMO, you'd be best served by setting your convergence distance the same for every gun on every single plane you fly, and learning to shoot them that way.

[TequilaChaser]

What do you need a table for?

A good standard to start with is 300yrds.  Fire when the icon counter changes to D200 (which is at 299yrds).

That's a good, effective range for all the guns in the game.  There aren't any where this would be a "wrong" or "bad" setting (although some will of course argue for different settings preferences; I have a definite preference for 275 myself).  There are a few rounds where 300yds is probably on the "long" side (.303's, etc).  There aren't any where it's too close though.

It'll work for wing-mounts, and it'll work for nose mounts.  MG's and cannons.  Axis and Allied planes.

Effectively, there are 3 "sweet spot" ranges within the AH convergence limits; 100yd, 300yd, and 500yd.  These are sweet spots because you have the ability to "know" when you are that far from your opponent, because this is the distance where the icon counter changes.  Firing at your opponent when he's at the right distance makes a huge difference (if you can hit him).  This includes the .303's.  Setting them in closer may make them more effective, but it's overshadowed by the ability to know when your target is at convergence IMO.  These rounds are really the only ones I'd be tempted to set in to 150-200yds or so (and then wait until I'm close enough to fire at that range).

Setting it to 100yd will cause you problems.  And setting it to 500 will never give you the power that 300 will, because even at convergence (max effectiveness) the 500yd setting is giving you a wide pattern due to the dispersal modeling (and that's assuming you're an absolutely, devastatingly accurate shot).  A 300yd setting give you more "power" at convergence, while still being fine for closer and further shots.

Hitting a plane at 500yds with a 500yd convergence isn't appreciably more effective than hitting him at 500yds with a 300yd convergence setting.  But hitting him at 300 with your convergence set to 300 is more effective by far than hitting him at 300 with a 500yd setting.

Nose mounts are more forgiving, and you won't really be penalized for setting them way out as far as they'll go.  There really isn't much difference between a nose mount set to 650 vs one set to 300 though, so 300 certainly won't hurt you.

With a setting of @300yds, if you're still not finding the guns as effective as you think they should be then convergence isn't your problem and adjusting it in or out isn't going to help.

It really is as simple as that.

The value of studying convergence isn't in tailoring a "custom" trajectory to suit your needs.  And the difficulties many claim to have with cannons isn't going to go away with all the convergence tweaking in the world.

The value of studying convergence is knowing where your rounds will be at different distances and bank angles, which allows you to mentally compensate for those shot opportunities where placing your gun sight right on your target would cause you to miss (which is almost every single shot you'll ever take in AH, BTW).

IMO, you'd be best served by setting your convergence distance the same for every gun on every single plane you fly, and learning to shoot them that way.

straight and simple explanation, you've presented us Mtnman,

I would also suggest that regardless of convergence distance or what the Icon counter says, is to practice on learning the size of the Aircraft in your boresite ........

practice this, in-vision it, take account of the size and burn this image into your Brain.... then regardless of what convergence you use ( but yes 300, and myself 350 specifically for every single plane ) is a great starting point. Even though every person will have their own preferred convergence as Mtnman has posted earlier.

I personally am not looking for what the Icon is telling me, I am looking for how large the plane appears to me ( or parts of certain planes ie- P38  "wide wingspan" )

when I get that mental image................let me back up........ when I played regularly and I had closed to within enough range to obtain that specific mental picture size of the plane in my boresite or if in a banking turn practicing & learning how much lead for a specific deflection or crossing shot is what helped me most....

starting out in the earlier stages when trying to hone your gunnery skills......... I agree with Mtnman about starting with his theology of convergence set to 300 and when icon changes 400 to 200 FIRE ( enemy at 299 yrds ),  I also think as you continue to improve on ones gunnery skills to go through a session of turning off tracers, possibly even.......

but in the end, for me I am looking for that over time burned-in image of plane size that is cataloged into my brain/memory to tell me "hey, time to snap off a "FEW" rounds!  Noticed I said a few rounds...... you should not be holding the trigger down for longer than 2 or 3 seconds max tops...... if you are you are wasting your ammo....

not sure if what I have posted helps, but it is pretty much what I was taught and practiced.....

also, using your stats on gunnery hit percentage can help you, to let you know if you yourself are improving, but be sure if you do like some of us and fire off "spook shots" to spook your individual to breaking hard and giving you a broader plane view for a deflection shot...... to allow a small drop in your hit percentage for throwing your ammo away on purpose but for a purpose of opportunity.....

maybe someone might get something out of what I have added here.........     (to this very in-depth topic, that was interesting to read through)

cheers

TC

[Lusche]

A personal statement:
(most of it has been written in this thread already, but I think the importance justifies the redundancy  )



I'm a fervent believer in "knowledge is power", a numbers fanatic and staunch supporter of diligent methodology.

But when it comes to gunnery, there is the danger of overdoing such things.
One should have a good idea of ballistics and the specific problems of airborne gunnery, but in the end it's much more about getting the right feel for it than anything else.
Sometimes players tweak their convergences endlessly, even setting up very different patterns for different planes, sortie types and so on, constantly in search for the legendary "best setting" that will make them great shots and their enemies fall from the skies in droves.
Been there, done that.

But there is no such thing. 

Extreme settings aside, convergence doesn't matter as much as it's  sometimes propagated, particularly for new players or average gunners. If you can't kill your targets with conv=350, you won't kill them with conv=300.
A reasonable middle-of-the-road setting that is kept for a long time (such as the AH standard setting in the hangar) and perhaps flying planes with the same armament only will help you a lot. It allows you to get a mental picture, to get the right feel for shooting.  Get out and practice as much as possible, in the TA with lead computing sight as well as in "live combat" (try not to get used to the lead computing sight too much). Film your fights and then review them afterwards to find out by how much you really missed and how much more you will have to lead next times.

Stick to the (already mentioned) basic principles: "Get close, then even closer" / "Aim small, miss small" / "Estimate the necessary lead, then double that distance"

Only once you have become a really good shot I would recommend reviewing your convergence settings again. You will then be able to tweak them based on your actual experience and knowledge about your own fighting style. And only then you may actually utilize the advantages.





Just two cents from someone who can shoot   


p.s:
my own personal settings: 350 for everything in all planes, except for:
Me 262 - Extreme shotgun pattern, 600 & 200 yards
Planes with rifle caliber armament (for example Hurricane and Spit 1), in which I only shoot at close ranges: 250.

[SmokinLoon]

along these lines.

when your the icon says 400, it is actually anything between 300 and 500 yards.

if my memory is correct.

Neg.  When the icon says "400", that means it is somewhere between 400 and 201 yards.     The icon says the longer of the 2 steps.  When an enemy icon says 2.5k, that means it is somewhere between 2500 and 2000 yards. 

[Lusche]

Neg.  When the icon says "400", that means it is somewhere between 400 and 201 yards. 

No, dkff49 was right. D400 = 300-499. D600 would be 500-699, and so on.