Author Topic: was the 410 50mm ever used for tank busting?  (Read 3644 times)

Offline Skyguns MKII

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was the 410 50mm ever used for tank busting?
« on: November 07, 2011, 05:40:30 PM »
bomber busting yeah, but was it ever used for tank busting? after all it was the same cannon that was armed on the panzer for a while.

Offline Krusty

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Re: was the 410 50mm ever used for tank busting?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2011, 05:42:03 PM »
Not with AP rounds, I don't think. There are some reports that it was used later in the war against the Soviet onslaught, against ground vehicles. I'm not sure about what armor penetration it had, or how many were used this way, but in the real war a lot of vehicles were lightly armored if at all. It could probably make mincemeat of truck convoys, etc.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: was the 410 50mm ever used for tank busting?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2011, 06:53:38 PM »
I've never seen any action reports or anything else that shows the 410 with the 50mm was used in the ground attack role against tanks or any other vehicles.  I've seen plenty of stuff though about how much the 50mm sucked on the 410 though.

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Offline Skyguns MKII

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Re: was the 410 50mm ever used for tank busting?
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2011, 07:01:38 PM »
I've never seen any action reports or anything else that shows the 410 with the 50mm was used in the ground attack role against tanks or any other vehicles.  I've seen plenty of stuff though about how much the 50mm sucked on the 410 though.

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Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: was the 410 50mm ever used for tank busting?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2011, 08:57:21 PM »
Good thing we don't have a miriad of other problems in Aces High.

In real life, Me 163's would sometimes explode because they got a bad fuel mixture.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

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Offline skorpion

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Re: was the 410 50mm ever used for tank busting?
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2011, 09:03:28 PM »
Good thing we don't have a miriad of other problems in Aces High.

In real life, Me 163's would sometimes explode because they got a bad fuel mixture.
IRL ME-163 pilots would rather bail instead of landing just because it was that horribly dangerous. not to mention that it would leak fuel into the cockpit and burn the pilot sometimes.


as far as the ME-410 as a tank buster? possible in AH, would completely destroy a truck convoy IRL. but i have yet to see combat reports of one shooting tanks.

Offline LLv34_Snefens

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Re: was the 410 50mm ever used for tank busting?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2011, 05:27:19 AM »
Tony Williams' site shows a picture of an AP round for the BK5. http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankammo4.htm Also the data table on his site list an AP projectile with the BK5 cannon?

About Me163's problems http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.walker6/komet/flight/flight5.htm
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Offline nrshida

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Re: was the 410 50mm ever used for tank busting?
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2011, 06:52:19 AM »
Tony Williams' site shows a picture of an AP round for the BK5. http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankammo4.htm Also the data table on his site list an AP projectile with the BK5 cannon?

Blimey, that's a big casing. What's the muzzle velocity? I'm sure I could have a quick look on Wikipedia, but I'm sure one of the experts is itching to tell  :banana:
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Offline moot

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Re: was the 410 50mm ever used for tank busting?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2011, 07:03:35 AM »
Only ballistics data I found was for the tank variant, from Tony Williams' site.   I don't have link handy and don't have time to dig it up atm.  Someone probably knows the table I'm talking about though.  And IIRC I quoted or mirrored it whole in one of the old Me 410 threads.

edit-  I definitely remember mentioning the muzzle velocity as part of energy calculations to try and guess at what the BK5's OBJ damage value would be.
edit2 - from an old excel spreadsheet, I have it down as 835 msec

quick and dirty copy paste for reference:


gun      mv

MG 17   865
MG 131   730
.50 Browning M2   890
12.7mm UB   840
20mm Type 99-1   600
MG-FF (API)   585
MG-FF (HEIT)   585
MG-FF (HE(M))   700
MG 151/20   745, 790, 750, 830
Hispano II   860
Hispano V   830, 820
VYa-23 (API)   880
VYa-23 (HE)   880
MK 108   505
MK 103   860
37mm M4   610
NS-37   900
HO301   246
BK5   835
T13E1/M3   619
Ostie   820
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 07:07:34 AM by moot »
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Offline nrshida

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Re: was the 410 50mm ever used for tank busting?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2011, 08:42:09 AM »
That's pretty fast for such a large projectile. I wonder what the ballistic coefficient is and at what point it drops to subsonic. HTC may have to extend the range at which the shot is modelled for that one. I once calculated the external ballistics for the Ho-5 cannon round but I had to make some deductions  

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Offline Krusty

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Re: was the 410 50mm ever used for tank busting?
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2011, 08:43:05 AM »
The comments about it seeing use against Soviet ground armor were either on ww2aircraft.net or LEMB, I don't recall which right now. If I find it I'll post the link to the discussion.

Offline moot

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Re: was the 410 50mm ever used for tank busting?
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2011, 04:12:46 PM »
That's pretty fast for such a large projectile. I wonder what the ballistic coefficient is and at what point it drops to subsonic. HTC may have to extend the range at which the shot is modelled for that one. I once calculated the external ballistics for the Ho-5 cannon round but I had to make some deductions  (Image removed from quote.)


I reckon the BK5 round will get extended range compared to regular gun rounds, like the Ostie and B25H rounds.
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: was the 410 50mm ever used for tank busting?
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2011, 04:17:33 PM »
IRL ME-163 pilots would rather bail instead of landing just because it was that horribly dangerous. not to mention that it would leak fuel into the cockpit and burn the pilot sometimes.

For your education, http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.walker6/komet/flight/flight5.htm

Offline skorpion

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Offline Scherf

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Re: was the 410 50mm ever used for tank busting?
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2011, 04:39:25 PM »
page cant be found? :headscratch:

Works fine at my end, interview with Rudy Opitz:

Popular Wisdom vs. a Test Pilot’s Experiences

1. Rocket engines would explode without warning.

RO: engines were reliable and relatively safe and were adjusted so as to shut down in the event of an imbalance in fuel flow. If there was a problem in engine performance, it related to shutdowns, not explosions. The only instances of engines blowing were in early testing of prototypes or when they had been damaged in battle or by accident.

  2. Leaking fuel could turn pilots to jelly, particularly if the plane flipped over.

RO: pilots, me included, survived overturned Komets, and an overturned ship would not necessarily leak fuel into the cockpit. When fuel contacted organic material, including skin, it ignited after only a few seconds. Our protective nylon suits would not ignite but were porous, and fuel could sop through to the skin.

3. Forward-mounted flaps were necessary to counter a negative pitching moment from the trailing-edge flaps.

RO: the TE flaps were trim flaps only, and the deployment of the forward-mounted underwing flaps did not cause a pitch change.

4. The Komet’s dive to speeds resulting in compressibility were often fatal.

RO: no fatalities resulted from this, to my knowledge. The Komets in such dives recovered after reaching a lower altitude that neutralized the compressibility problems.

5. As many as 15 percent of Komets broke up while pulling out of high-speed dives where compressibility had became a factor.

RO: no such fatalities to my knowledge.

6. Stall characteristics were abrupt and severe and taxed the skills of even experienced fighter pilots.

RO: the plane was equipped with leading-edge slots that eliminated stalls and caused it to mush forward in a mode that was immediately recoverable. The plane would not spin and was intentionally designed to be docile for low-time pilots.

7. Only experienced pilots could adequately handle the airplane at slow speeds.

RO: the plane was docile and friendly at slow speeds, and it had to be for low-time pilots to successfully land it dead-stick.

8. The Komet was not a successful fighter but future development would have made it a formidable interceptor.

RO: The 263—the next incarnation—had retractable landing gear, a pressurized cabin and considerably more fuel, but it never got beyond the early prototype stage.

I agree the 163B was not a successful fighter. Several hundred 163Bs were built,
but only 91 were operational as of December 31, 1944, and only 16 kills were attributed to 163s during the War. Note, however, that while under power or in a fast glide, the 163 could fly circles around any other fighter of its time.

In fact, the true contribution of the Komet was to high-speed flight as evidenced by the success of the delta-wing Concorde and delta-wing space shuttle. These Lippisch planform concepts live on today.


... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB